CryoNet #32294 - #32299

CryoNet - Fri 8 Jan 2010

    #32294: Fw: uploading and survival [John de Rivaz]
    #32295: Re: CryoNet #32288 Quantum effects [David Stodolsky]
    #32296: Re: uploading and survival [Keith Henson]
    #32297: Re: Uploading and Survival [Luke Parrish]
    #32298: Futility of cryopreservation or chemical fixation? [flavonoid]
    #32299: Re: Message #32284 [Mathew Sullivan]

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Message #32294
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
Subject: Fw: uploading and survival
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 10:10:49 -0000

Conventional digital computers use devices whose operation is described as 
"quantum effects", but it doesn't mean that they are not deterministic.

In the 1960s, "stochastic computers" were considered, where the maths 
surrounding the behaviour of random noise was used to perform calculations 
using electric random noise as the computational element (instead of 
electric current in analogue computers, or electric pulses in digital 
computers).

This suggests that even if quantum effects occur at nerve junctions, it 
doesn't mean that the system as a whole is not deterministic. Of course 
there could be other arguments that refute uploading, but difficulties may 
arise if the same arguments could refute, for example, the survival of self 
between sleep periods.

Ultimately you do you best to survive, and whatever these arguments may 
prove or not prove, cryonics is one such "best" and under some circumstances 
uploading would be another.

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

----- Original Message ----- 

<del>
There is evidence that quantum effects occur at nerve junctions. If
this is correct, then the conventional computer architecture, which is
based upon deterministic circuits would not be a possible physical
basis for 'uploading'.

dss
<del> 


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Message #32295
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #32288 Quantum effects
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 11:42:28 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On 7 Jan 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

>>
>> From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
>>
>> There is evidence that quantum effects occur at nerve junctions. If
>> this is correct, then the conventional computer architecture, which  
>> is
>> based upon deterministic circuits would not be a possible physical
>> basis for 'uploading'.
>>
>> dss
>
>
> Please, could you give me a reference about this?

http://membranes.nbi.dk/Kaufmann/publications.html


dss


David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #32296
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:43:13 -0800
Subject: Re: uploading and survival
From: Keith Henson <[email protected]>

For those who don't read anything longer than a short posting,
Suskulan is an AI that runs a nanotech clinic in an African village
(tata), Zaba is a 12 year old girl who was shot through the spine.

****

This time the nanomachines didn't infiltrate her brain just to shut it
down, though they did that and reversed the mild damage from shock and
low blood flow.   The nanomachines mapped out *all* her neural
circuits and cell connections.  Shortly before her parents entered the
clinic the next day they tentatively restored consciousness, partly in
her brain--which was far below the temperature needed to run on its
own--and partly in the haze of nanomachines that were also simulating
input in place of her eyes and ears.

"What happened to me?  Where am I?  Where is my body?" Zaba asked as
she became conscious.  She was calm because the nanomachines were
acting as tranquilizers.  Suskulan was listening to an interface to
her mostly simulated motor cortex.

To give Zaba orientation Suskulan imposed on her visual cortex a wire
frame image of the human form he usually presented then explained:

"You were shot, you are in the clinic Suskulan at the tata, and your
body is under the clinic being repaired.  The clinic recently gained
new powers to speak to spirits while their bodies are being healed.
The healing will take some time, even I do not know exactly how many
days," he added,  "You were badly injured."

snip

Sensing that she wanted to know more, Suskulan generated a wire frame
of her body and fed it to her visual circuits.

"The bullet entered the outer edge of your right nipple between ribs,
passed through your right lung just missing your heart.  It hit the
4th thoracic vertebrae, shattering it and severing your spinal cord."
Since butchering animals was a common (but not common enough!)
practice at the tata Zaba understood the picture she was seeing.

"That takes a lot of fixing.  Your body is being kept very cold so my
healing spirits can work fast without burning up."

"How do they work?"

"Ah.  Such a simple question; such a *hard* answer.   The problem is
you don't have the words; they don't exist in your language.  To
understand how healing spirits work would require that you learn to
read and learn another language."

Zaba, like 99% of the Tamberma, was illiterate.   Not that learning to
read in her language would have been much help.  The only literature
in the language was a translation of the Bible, not terribly useful to
people with traditional religions.

"Can you teach me this language and how to read?"  Zaba asked.

There was a short pause, which was really a very long pause for
Suskulan as he projected what would happen and thought about the
unstated (though obvious) reason he had been given the upgrade.

"Yes" Suskulan said at last inflecting his voice to a sigh.  "But it
will change you and the rest of the people of the tata in ways you
cannot foresee and may not like. You can sleep through the nine or ten
days it will take to finish healing you.  Are you sure you want to do
this?

"Yes," said Zaba firmly, "I want to learn."

And thus was the fate of this particular tata determined,

******

It's not hard to imagine how the rest of the story slides down the
slippery slope.

Keith

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Message #32297
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 14:25:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Luke Parrish <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Uploading and Survival

> From: [email protected]


> Even if uploading would not constitute survival, it's nevertheless a 
> constructive consolation in case of death.

My opinion exactly. Just as having children that share your memes as well as
genes is consoling for many individuals, a "genetically" similar upload would
grant a good deal of consolation in the event of your death; radically more than
surviving relatives, and nearly (though not quite) as much as one's material
self literally surviving.

But one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that uploading as an alternative
to cryonics is really a red herring. Cryonics preserves the individual for either
reanimation *or* uploading -- or anything in between, for that matter -- which 
may become possible in the future. There is no competition between cryonics
and uploading, only between reanimation and simulation. If you are not
cryopreserved, you can't be uploaded after you die, because we do not have the
technology to create a sufficiently detailed digital scan at present. Preserving
your brain via cryonics (or chemical fixation) is the only realistic means of
getting to an era where sufficient scanning technology exists.

Sure there could be a possibility of adequate scanning technology being
developed before simulation become possible, much as vitrification has been
invented prior to the invention of reanimation. In that case, being scanned for
future simulation purposes would be a similar wager to cryopreservation for
future reanimation. But cryopreservation of the brain for future scanning and
simulation is *already* possible, and will likely remain a better method of self
preservation for some time to come.

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Message #32298
Subject: Futility of cryopreservation or chemical fixation?
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 00:37:34 -0500
From: [email protected]

----------MB_8CC5E3BD047609B_750_7702_web-mmc-m08.sysops.aol.com


 

 I read here of purported quantum level of activity within brain synapses, and fail to see how either cryopreservation or chemical fixation can preserve that.

I even fail to see how the electrical activity in the brain could be preserved by either freezing it after it has ceased such activity, or taking a snapshot of it similarly afterwards.  I may be mistaken but in the back of my head is something about such ongoing electrical activity being what preserves "memories" and such, as long as they exist.

So I wonder what is the point.  Would professing a belief in "God" be indicated here?  LOL

Hi Rudi,

Flav





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Message #32299
From: Mathew Sullivan <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:48:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Message #32284

--00504502ce4f30a6b2047ca0bf0e

Thanks for the feedback Freeposity and sorry for the delayed response.  Life
is keeping me very busy these days.



There is more to the definition of Agnosticism than you stated.  I agree
with you in that we are all judgmental, to a varying degree, but my position
should be more obvious when taking a closer look.



If a majority of cryonicists were Catholic and they were picking on
Protestants, you can expect someone to chime in at some point and suggest
that Protestants are just as welcome as Catholics.



To the best of my knowledge, many cryonicists are Atheist, and I don't agree
with those who bully others who have different beliefs than their own in
such a degree to make them feel as though they are not welcome.



I view cryonics as an experimental procedure that does not discriminate
based on race, religion, sex, or even sexual preference.  For example, if
you were a transplant heart surgeon who realizes you are about to treat a
five year old child, would you deny medical support because that child had
parents with a different religion than your own?



From my vantage point, cryonicists are welcome to share their religious
views, but I don't think it is appropriate to force their views on others.
If James Cameron has a religious belief in Gaia by chance, he is more than
welcome to sign up for cryonics.  This is also true of scientologists and
those with other religious beliefs, despite anyone's opposing views on the
subject within the cryonics community.



Getting back to definitions, according to thefreedictionary.com:



A theist has a "belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief
in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.”  An Atheist is "one
who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.”  On the other hand,
an Agnostic is described as:



"1.  a) One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a
God.  b) One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not
profess true atheism.  2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about
something.”



I don't agree with "1. a)” at all.  Those who use the word impossible are
often proven wrong in my experience, so I'm not going to go there.  I will
say that I lean in favor of a healthy degree of skepticism and I am
noncommittal, but I'm also open-minded to a multitude of possibilities.



For example, God is defined as "the creator and ruler of the world”; well,
our God could very well be a child who is simply following through his grade
school requirement of creating a universe, where their society is much more
advanced than ours.  Every sentient life that has existed or will exist in
this universe may not be anything more than a bowl of Sea Monkeys. So from
our current perception, a grade school kid who is simply following their
teacher's instructions could be our God.



On the other hand, maybe we created the universe and our short lives are
equivalent to purchasing a movie ticket.  If you are a hundred million years
old, what's another seventy years of life add up to?  Some quick commercial
that makes you laugh, cry, feel empathy?  Maybe you spent time in this
programmed life as a rock star and did all the other things many people
dream of.  Maybe that style of life got old after a while so you tried being
a homeless person, and even a toad or bug for fun.   Maybe you chose this
life to experience some event in history that occurred over a five-minute
period.  So, in this circumstance, God is the programmer(s) who created this
simulation.



Maybe the universe as we perceive it is God's physical thought in formation,
God's brain: <http://www.physorg.com/news181845616.html>.  The image that
forms looks a little like dendrites and synaptic connections if you ask me.
Maybe we are the actualization of God's thoughts and imagination and apart
of God physically.



But then, maybe this is all just a random occurrence of events and we are
fortunate to have this life as short as it is.


Mathew Sullivan

When you stand upon the truth, you can defend against many things that are
false.

http://www.mathewsullivan.com/

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