CryoNet #32340 - #32345

CryoNet - Sat 30 Jan 2010

    #32340: Re: uppity_cryonet_members [John de Rivaz]
    #32341: Wow...now THIS is more like it...comments on posings 1/29/10 [Rudi Hoffman]
    #32342: Re: Uppity Cryonet Members [Luke Parrish]
    #32343: RE: uppity_cryonet_members [Jordan Sparks]
    #32344: Re: Signing Up Children For Cryonics [robomoon]
    #32345: Re: Life is short and brutal. [MARK PLUS]

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Message #32340
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: uppity_cryonet_members
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:50:40 -0000

Surely one in a million is better than zero?

Did you get that figure from the cryonics calculator? 
http://www.cryonicscalculator.com

With regards to benefiting others now, very, very few people take this to 
its logical conclusion. Those are the gurus who wander about helping people 
as best they can and have no posessions and rely totally on others for 
sustenance. It only works because there are so few of them.

Surely how people spend their money is up to them. Would you go on a 
discussion group about organised dancing and say that people shouldn't spend 
their money on that but instead use it to help poor people of their 
neighbourhood? If everyone does that then those organising the dancing are 
out of a job.

Money spent on cryonic support isn't destroyed. It just passes through the 
cryonics organisation and then on somewhere else. Money saved in the patient 
care trust is capital that is used somewhere.

Very few people are capable of doing the scientific research that you 
mention. It is unlike subjects like radio and electronics, which in 
comparison are much simpler, and where hundreds if not thousands of people 
were able to contribute to the present state of knowledge and 
infrastructure.

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

----- Original Message ----- 
Message #32339
From: "Warren Keevers" <[email protected]>
<del>
what you are trying to achieve has at the very best a
one in a million chance of working at this point in time. Again at the very
best!
<del> 

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Message #32341
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:23:31 -0500
Subject: Wow...now THIS is more like it...comments on posings 1/29/10
From: Rudi Hoffman <[email protected]>

--001636417375dc155b047e4f37cf

Hello, cryonetters, lurkers, etc.,

Hallelujah!  (Irony intentional)

Today's cryonet postings...all three of them...made me quite happy.



-- 
Rudi Richard Hoffman CFP CLU ChFC

World's Leading Cryonics Insuror rudihoffman.com
Former Board Member Financial Planning Association fpafla.com
Board Member Salvation Army salvationarmy.org
Member Alcor Life Extension Foundation alcor.org,
Member Cryonics Institute cryonics.org
Certified Financial Planner(TM) CFP Board of Standards
Member World Transhumanist Association http://transhumanism.org/

--001636417375dc155b047e4f37cf

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Message #32342
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 07:50:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Luke Parrish <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Uppity Cryonet Members

If you expect the majority of people attracted to cryonics to be mature,
in the normal sense of the word, you are going to be disappointed. I've
met a few mature people in cryonics, but they are relatively scarce.
Most of us (including myself) can be considered eccentric when evaluated
by prevalent social criteria, even in absence of cryonics. But I think
this is not caused by belief in cryonics, rather that cryonics
(subjectively) represents an ultimate sort of rebellion that attracts
contrarians, creatives, and crazies. Generally speaking, you don't join
cryonics unless you have pretty much given up caring what people think.

Which is what Eliezer was getting at with his blog post that was quoted
here. You shouldn't need to be a weird person to join the cryonics
movement. And furthermore, people these days who join are much closer
to the normal side of the spectrum. We see more girls involved, couples,
kids. It's becoming a more normal thing.

Furthermore it is a very *logical* thing. That science is advancing is
a fact. We shouldn't be staking our eternal existence on the kind of
vague philosophical reassurances that religion offers us when science
(with its evidence of steady progress) provides a concrete alternative.
And from a logical perspective, it doesn't matter that this alternative
is not assured of success (science assumes no absolutes), it only
matters that it is better than the remaining alternatives.

The fact that it is perceived as an abnormal thing by most people is a
*social* phenomenon. We look at cryonics (myself included) and in our
animal brains we perceive *risk* where there is none. The only true risk
is a social one. But social risks need to be evaluated separately from
survival risks. People are typically too lazy or lack the critical
thinking skill to do so. That is why Eliezer Yudkowsky is using such
social shock tactics on his blog readers.

Cryonics is much more than a one in a million chance at this point, if
practiced under ideal conditions. We have strong evidence that
vitrification of the brain with zero toxicity and zero ice crystal
formation is possible. Technology to regrow body parts is already being
used in the lab.

Selling the dream is very much a heroic effort, because so far as we
know cryonics is already 100% effective. There is a very plausible
mechanism by which current cryonics technology can be used to preserve
the lives of people who are beyond the help of today's medical science.
Refusal to join this movement is an act of cowardice, not out of fear
of one's life but out of fear for one's social standing.

A hero doesn't have to be assured of success, she only has to determine
the best available course of action and *do* it.


Hope this makes sense to you,

Luke

> Message #32339
> From: "Warren Keevers" 
> Subject: =?windows-1255?Q?uppity_cryonet_members=FE?=
> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:09:38 +1000
> 
> Hello,
> 
> My name is warren, and I have been on your mailing list now for a few years,
> just lurking..
> 
> I wasn't going to ever really post here as I was just interested in cryonics
> and thought it would be interesting to read up on what you all have to say.
> 
> 
> Sincerely disappointed! I won't mention any names but the last straw was
> being called a "lousy parent" because I simply haven't signed my kids up. 
> 
> I thought the majority of you would be a little more mature, and intelligent
> enough to realize that what you are trying to achieve has at the very best a
> one in a million chance of working at this point in time. Again at the very
> best! Which is usually admirable but you lot have lost your way, if you
> really ever had one. I do realize cryonics is possible, of course it is, as
> we all know nature does it, do you really think most people don't know
> that?? 
> 
> At first I thought I would see a lot of posts by people showing experiments
> that you have done (and in your defense there are some in your group doing
> this, but they are sadly the minority), maybe even some scientific
> breakthroughs which the people in cryonics have made, generally speaking a
> bunch science type people all working together to achieve a working end
> result, but no, all I am seeing is a bunch of self absorbed fools setting up
> trust funds (or whatever they are) so they will have money in a future that
> supposedly has the ability to repair the human body on a cellular level.
> Hate to reign in on your parade but if people in the future can do that,
> then your money will mean NOTHING! 
> 
> I'm also wondering (and I know this is a little off topic), but are you all
> just waiting for Jesus to come back to earth, sorry, I mean the singularity
> (I get them mixed up all the time ; ) ), so you can just leach of the
> technological advancements achieved? Why not do something fruitful and
> instead of pouring all that money into a glorified freezer. Why not start
> contributing to the world today? If as some of you believe, your pseudo
> immortality depends upon this singularity then why not start putting some
> money into AI? Or maybe spend some real money as a group on something other
> than liquid nitrogen and a tank. You freeze people then expect the future
> people to do all the work for you, If I was one of these people in the
> future, id shoot your body straight into the sun simply because your too
> lazy to make a real contribution to the human race. There are so many
> variables in your pipe dream, but then you all know that don't you? 
> 
> When I think of cryonics now and specifically your group, I think of a
> religious organization, because in all honesty you are closer to that then
> any other category, you have a belief and you think that anyone who
> disagrees with you is wrong and/or simply beneath you. Might I remind of you
> of the scientific method, or does science have no bearing in this group? 
> 
> Another thing, you want to know why people aren't signing up, its because
> cryonics at this point in time for humans has, as I said before, at best a
> one in a million chance of working, I believe that id have just as much
> chance of going to heaven (or hell.. lol) as waking up after being frozen
> with liquid nitrogen, and none of you can prove this incorrect. All I've
> been reading lately is badger data this, badger data that, blah blah blah.
> You are (generally speaking) in my opinion more interested in marketing than
> science or for that matter, actually doing something!
> 
> I am a programmer and have been interested in AI and robotics for some time,
> so you know what I did, I started learning about it, I started working on
> it. Instead of trying to recruit people, instead of preaching how good it
> will be when it happens, I sat down and tried to do it, needless to say I
> failed, and needless to say it most likely won't be me that does create an
> AI robot. But If I were to take the approach that most of your group in
> cryonics is currently taking I'd duct tape a computer to a Lego man and then
> try to sell it to the people as a artificially intelligent robot. Then I
> would probably get really annoyed because no one is buying it. Maybe I can
> refer to the badger data, it will most likely tell me that people are too
> stupid to realize what I am selling and if they did have the brains, they
> would be too gutless to sign up because their friends would think them
> idiots. Hrrrm maybe it's a bad analogy (it's hard to find one that fits).. I
> know, put the laptop duct taped to a Lego man in liquid nitrogen, then the
> future people can turn him into a real robot and send him back to me, using
> time travel of course, How many of you want one? I'll sell them to you for
> $5000 each. 
> 
> In conclusion
> 
> The real pioneers/hero's of cryonics and many other fields are the
> scientists working in genetics, nanotechnology, the inventors, the ones
> actually advancing our knowledge, but most definitely not a group of people
> selling a dream.
> 
> Your alive now, make the most of it. You can have a dream there isn't
> anything wrong with that, but don't make it an obsession, and don't belittle
> those who don't agree with you.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Warren

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Message #32343
From: "Jordan Sparks" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: uppity_cryonet_members
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 07:04:25 -0800

Warren,

Surely you must realize that the posts on this forum are not representative
of all cryonicists?  I don't care about Badger data any more than you do.
There are scientists working on the problems, but they simply don't post on
this forum.  This is not the place for it.  Forums tend to be for people to
like to hear themselves talk.  If you browse through the posts from about 10
years ago, you will see an entirely different group of people and a
different tone.  Regardless of the tone on this group, the science behind
cryonics remains the same.  One person made the comment about a lousy parent
and you seriously think that any of us agree with him?  Why would you think
we agree with him?

Enough experiments have already been done to demonstrate that cryonics will
be nearly 100% successful if the best protocols are followed.  The scanning
electron micrographs show outstanding preservation of the shapes of the
neurons.  So I don't know how you could look at those micrographs and come
to the conclusion that it only has a one in a million chance of working.  It
already IS working.  Phase one is successful.

If we don't work hard on it, we will die.  It seems quite reasonable to
expend some effort on it.  That doesn't make it an obsession.  There is no
plan B for survival.  That's the whole point.

Jordan Sparks

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Message #32344
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 17:48:21 +0100 (CET)
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Signing Up Children For Cryonics

The idea to survive from cryonics implies more than a simple bet on life extension. Due to an increased expectation for reanimation it often reduces anxieties about death and related stress. It also works very well as a catalyst of financial gratification. People who earn more money with their profession than is required to pay for the basics (food, accommodation, participation in traffic, medicine, etc.), often make investments in security. Not only a lock in the door and a fire extinguisher in the corridor enhance security, but there are also a variety of insurances to enable payments for various needs.

One insurance that works as a very profitable financial investment is life insurance. Investments into a life insurance are way less risky in terms of financial losses than securities like stock papers or mutual funds. Usually, the greatest financial payout from life insurance occurs when the insured person dies. Such an occurrence benefits one's heirs quite more, unless one's brain is deemed for cryonics. Thus, the financial benefit from such payouts will be for revival after cryonic suspension. Since the value of life is unlimited, life insurance is turning into a negotiable financial gratification for cryonicists instead of one's heirs. Cryonicists love it that way while insurers get happy as well.

Not anyone, not even in all wealthy nations, can easily become a good parent from cryonics and the purchase of life insurances. Regarding life insurances for families in Germany, one might get into trouble with them when special needs require to apply for some social benefits from the goverment. The government only pays them when the recipient has a low financial estate up to a certain level. A coverage of life insurance which is high enough for cryonics renders a level of real estate higher than allowed for the recepients of above mentioned social benefits.

So when a family fails to getting signed up for cryonics, it can stem from their poverty within a legislative of riches and not from what can be reviled as lousy parents.

--


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Message #32345
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 18:32:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Life is short and brutal.
From: MARK PLUS <[email protected]>

In Cryonet  #32338, J Coetzee writes:

>Wake up! Forget the ideas of Audrey de Gray. He is a piper leading millions to their doom. Dump those vitamins in the trash. Your death is waiting around the next corner.

We've already seen the discrediting of the anti-aging "experts" back
in the 1970's who predicted that we could throw away the actuarial
tables by now instead of our vitamins. Bohemians on the fringes of
cryonics back then like Robert Anton Wilson, Timothy Leary and F.M.
Esfandiary helped to popularize these forecasts.

Several years ago Thomas Donaldson made an analogy between aging
research and the history of astronomy. Because planets appear to move
so slowly relative to observational conditions on Earth, it took the
efforts of generations of astronomers, across a succession of
civilizations, before scientists starting in the 17th Century could
formulate an adequate model of planetary motion.

Because already humans live longer than most other mammals, Donaldson
analogizes, it will probably take several generations' worth of effort
before scientists can accumulate enough data to formulate an adequate
theory of aging. Then it will take even more decades to see if
interventions into the human aging process work to extend maximum life
expectancy.

Those predictions from the 1970's that we'd have 300 year life
expectancies by now never made sense any way. Someone born in 1980
would have to survive to the year 2280 before other people alive in
that year would have that knowledge; we have no way of acquiring that
knowledge in the year 2010. The preponderance of evidence still
supports the validity of the actuarial tables in predicting the life
expectancies of currently living people.

By contrast, Donaldson says, we can perform experiments in the
cryopreservation of the brain and derive useful data in a matter of
days. So I agree with Coetzee that we should make cryonics research a
priority and not chase after the "actuarial escape velocity" mirage.

Reference:

Why Cryonics Will Probably Help You More Than Antiaging, by Thomas Donaldson

http://www.depressedmetabolism.com/why-cryonics-will-probably-help-you-more-than-antiaging/

Mark Plus

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