CryoNet #32457 - #32460

CryoNet - Mon 8 Mar 2010

    #32457: Some cryonicists just don't underestand. [david pizer]
    #32458: Re: neuro vs whole [rr ss]
    #32459: Re: neuro vs whole [Mathew Sullivan]
    #32460: Re: Cash funding for cryonics [Rudi Hoffman]

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Message #32457
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:11:49 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer <[email protected]>
Subject: Some cryonicists just don't underestand.

The reason this debate is important is that it illustrates the downplaying of the disastrous public relations policy of cryonics companies in (as the public sees it) cutting off people's heads.
 
My good friend Mike (Dr,) Perry has responded to my Cryonet post in another forum.  I am replying to him in that forum and on Cryonet where I originated the discussion.  Below are Mike's comments and my responses.
 
UNKNOWN WROTE:   Please see the two messages that David Pizer wrote in the attached CryoNet digest. I think he has a good idea here regarding cryonics.  (ORIGINAL MESSAGES FROM PIZER DELETED)

MIKE PERRY SAID:  With due respect for others' opinions I am opposed to eliminating the neuro option. I think that the long-term storage cost advantage of neuro over whole body is substantial (10 neuros will fit in the same size storage container as one whole body) and the negative publicity is overrated.

PIZER'S RESPONSE:  Mike gives no actual figures of the difference in cost.  He just says 10 heads will fit in the same container as a whole body.  This is a way of misleading the reader into thinking that doing a "Neuro" suspension only costs 1/10 that of a whole body.  Nothing could be further than the truth.  Most of the cost of doing a suspension (as I pointed out in my original posing and Mike conveniently overlooked) is in keeping the organization going to be there at suspension time, and in doing the standby and other costs.  The storage is not that big of the overall cost of either a Neuro or Whole Body suspension.
 
AND, the attorney fees and roadblocks thrown up in Alcor's face, because the public detests Neuros, adds much more than the savings of a Neuro suspension to the over all costs of doing cryonics and Alcor staying in business  (just look at Alcor's annual costs of hiring consultants and attorneys, and other related expenses each year).  

ALSO, doing Neuros causes the relatives of Alcor members to cause the members to cancel their membership.  This leads to lost patients - those members who quit us every year in droves would have become patients some day.  We lost and they lost - thanks to public perception of Neuro Option!

Mike says: "... the negative publicity is overrated."  

Pizer: I have talked to thousands of individuals and groups on cryonics over the years and Mike is just plain *DEAD* wrong.   People won't always tell a cryonicists, to his face, that they detest Neuros, so a while ago when we were speaking to groups we let the audience fill out cards after the talk (without revealing their identity) about what they thought of our talk and cryonics in general and they detest Neuros.  It is the single one thing that turns them against cryonics and against Alcor!

MIKE SAID:   (Storage costs are not the entire cost of long-term patient maintenance, but still quite a significant part.) TW strictly speaking was not a neuro. His whole body was preserved but in two parts. At the time of his cryopreservation Alcor had a vitrification protocol that required cephalic isolation (removing the head) to access the vasculature so the brain could be vitrified. It was either do that or accept a by-then substandard cryopreservation, the old kind with glycerol perfusion, not vitrification, if the whole body was perfused intact. Since this time Alcor has developed a protocol in which the whole body can be vitrified so that cephalic isolation is no longer required.

PIZER:  Come on Mike!  EVERYONE Knew that TW's head was removed.  

 That is what turned most of the public against Alcor in this case - not the fact that we suspended him!

MIKE: the negative publicity is overrated., no neuropreservation has ever terminated. No lawsuit has ever been instigated *because* someone was preserved as a neuro rather than whole body. 

PIZER:  Hundred of Alcor memberships have been canceled over the years.  I believe it is because (in some/many cases) the relatives of the member hate Alcor so much - mainly because the are sicken by the Neuro option that we offer.  (In other cases, I believe, it is because the relatives know if the member cancels "they" can get the proceeds of the funding vehicle.)
 
MIKE:  The failure to consider the neuro option in the early days was, in my estimation, a major factor in the loss of patients that occurred. Time after time a whole body case would be abandoned rather than converted into lower-cost neuro. As for the negative publicity today, yes, neuro seems creepy to some people but can also make people think about what is really important about cryonics--preserving g the brain above all else. If we want to be rational we should allow this option. It can also be emphasized that nobody *requires* that someone sign up for neuro, you can go whole body if you choose (and can afford it).

PIZER:  The "major" factor was the cryonics company in question ran out of money, good judgment and support from the relatives of the patients.  

Plus they were not set up like Alcor, They took suspensions on credit where Alcor solved that problem by requiring full payment up front. 

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Message #32458
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:49:10 -0800 (PST)
From: rr ss <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: neuro vs whole

If those who want Alcor to no longer offer neuro get their way, hundreds of cryonicists will be forced to become EX cryos. That is a distinct possibility.

Whole body costs 120K dollars or thereabouts. Correct me if I am wrong.

Neuro costs 80K and even lower for those of us grandfathered in.

Many of us cannot afford to pay the extra money. So this anti-neuro movement among (wealthy?) cryonicists could and probably would kill many cryonicists.

Just saying, is all.....

-cryofan

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Message #32459
From: Mathew Sullivan <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:57:34 -0500
Subject: Re: neuro vs whole

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Hi cryofan,



Personally speaking, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  Why?  Many of
Alcor's cases are subsidized through membership dues and donations as an end
result of grandfathering.  Also, Dave neglects to consider that
vitrification solutions used today are VERY expensive, and neuro patients
only require a small fraction of what is required for whole body patients.
And the consequence of forcing members to take out a larger life insurance
policy would only serve to increase the bounty on the heads of members (no
pun intended) for family members who would be tempted to cash in by
interfering.  So, I believe forcing neuro members to become whole body
members would result in an implosion of the total number of Alcor members,
and many of them would simply go signup with CI.



Some people out there may be turned off by neuro preservation; similar to
Dave, I've talked to many people over the years and it isn't neuro
preservation that is the key issue here, but our inability to bring back a
whole organism such as a monkey or dog, etc.  And for those who continue to
find neuro preservation a bit creepy, it is a matter of educating them about
the scientific efforts with organ printing; naturally, we can't expect to
please everyone while engaged in such discussions, but that's life.  Natural
selection and technological progress will resolve this issue in time.


In conclusion, unless Dave is willing to personally finance a free upgrade
for individual members, I don't expect to see a shift in members who will be
signing up for whole body preservation any time soon.  And from the
perspective of someone who is signed up for neuro, I wouldn't make the
switch even if it was free.


Mathew Sullivan

When you stand upon the truth, you can defend against many things that are
false.

http://www.mathewsullivan.com/

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Message #32460
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 23:44:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Cash funding for cryonics
From: Rudi Hoffman <[email protected]>

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Steve Bridge was good enough to point out that one can do "cash funding"
with Alcor.  And, this is correct with CI as well.  And you could even set
enough aside to prepay CI, AND Suspended Animation, AND prepaid air
ambulance.

Of course one can.  And if you can do this, you can also do cash funding for
a guaranteed index annuity with approximately double the return.  Currently
5 to 8% return on the guaranteed annuity...most did better than this
depending on start time even this past year..  I checked with Alcor but
could not get confirmed answer on the rate their CD was paying, but Diane
Cremeens thought it to be 1 to 3 percent.

So, as usual, Steve Bridge is right...and gets it right.  But given the cash
funding option, wouldn't it make a bit more sense to garner substantially
better growth on your 35,000 or 150,000?  One can take the extra thousands
and contribute it to your cryonics organization if you don't need it.

Nuff said.

As usual, comments from anomomous "flav" are ignored, considering the
source.

Sorry, Kitty, but variable annuities, including the ones availble through
Vanguard, (and I make them all available and have sold as well as invested
in millions of dollars in Variable Annuities over the last 32 years) are not
considered guaranteed and not suitable for cryonics funding..  Because of
the longstanding relationship you and Paul had with Alcor, the board may
have made an exception in your case, but the general case still applies for
general   funding situations.

My purpose was and is to provide helpful and generally suitable and
appropriate information regarding not slopping up our cryonics
funding.  Kitty, your personal funding is probably just right for you, and I
wouldn't want you to change a thing assuming Alcor approved your funding.

So, thanks for the usual cryonet nitpicking, and I stand by the my posting.
:)

Thanks also, for the hundreds of clients who simply do the straightforward,
smart, cost effective funding options that are clearly possible for cryonics
funding.

Rudi







-- 
Rudi Richard Hoffman CFP CLU ChFC

World's Leading Cryonics Insuror rudihoffman.com
Former Board Member Financial Planning Association fpafla.com
Board Member Salvation Army salvationarmy.org
Member Alcor Life Extension Foundation alcor.org,
Member Cryonics Institute cryonics.org
Certified Financial Planner(TM) CFP Board of Standards
Member World Transhumanist Association http://transhumanism.org/

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