CryoNet #32656 - #32664

CryoNet - Thu 24 Jun 2010

    #32656: Re: Brain Preservation Petition [David Stodolsky]
    #32657: Re: Melody's Blunder [David Stodolsky]
    #32658: Anonymity - Response to Freeposity (message 32653) [Melody Maxim]
    #32659: Comments [Gerald Monroe]
    #32660: Response to John de Rivaz (Message 32651) [Melody Maxim]
    #32661: 3D Nanotechnology graphic novel "Lazarus" just released [Gina Miller]
    #32662: John Horgan criticizes Ray Kurzweil's immortalism [MARK PLUS]
    #32663: cheap Perpetual Trusts for Cryonicist [Jonano]
    #32664: Sequel to the unincorporated man [swb1948]

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Message #32656
Subject: Re: Brain Preservation Petition
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:17:09 +0200
References: <[email protected]>

On 23 Jun 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

> But the fact is that chemical fixation sells better, and the same essential rights and initiatives are covered by endorsing it. As a pragmatic matter, I feel that getting attention to this initiative is going to be more effective than directly focusing on cryogenic methods of preservation (where we have seen LOTS of evidence that most people cannot be trusted to remain rational on the topic).

There is no evidence that people will remain rational on chemical fixation. The reason it sells better is because of the difference in price. You say:

"If you want to change the world, you change the metaphor." - Joseph Campbell

This proposal doesn't really change the metaphor.


dss

David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #32657
Subject: Re: Melody's Blunder
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:38:53 +0200
References: <[email protected]>

On 23 Jun 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

> All this talk about people being "properly medically qualified" to perform cryonics procedures suggests a faith in the medical profession that I wonder whether is relevant.


This misses the point. Melody is saying that misrepresentation is damaging to cryonics. This includes misrepresentation to the public and misrepresentation of peoples' qualifications by the size of their paychecks. 

Money is being paid for top quality suspensions by fully qualified people, but it is being wasted. This must be corrected, if the needed level of trust by the public is to be achieved. 

The more general problem is a failure to assess the relative importance of socio-political risk and cryobiological risk. Even if perfect suspensions are performed, suspendees will have to be kept safe for hundreds of years in what looks like a highly turbulent socio-political environment. This failure is remarkable, since the only confirmed 'deaths' of suspendees has been due to socio-political factors: One case of economic/organizational failure and continuing poor suspensions due to legal delays. The misrepresentation discussed increases the socio-political risk.


dss


David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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Message #32658
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:52:33 +0000 (UTC)
From: Melody Maxim <[email protected]>
Subject: Anonymity - Response to Freeposity (message 32653)

Freeposity writes: "I always use a psuedonym. It seems to me that anonymity is a right and disparaging its use because you choose to expose yourself is a little disturbing."

I sincerely apologize to anyone who took my comments, regarding anonymity, as disparaging. My complaints were directed at the person who identifies himself as "Finance Department" on Cryonet, and "FD" on Cold Filter. That person, frequently, uses his right to anonymity, to post blatant lies and wild speculations. I believe he is smart enough to know the information he posts is false, and that he makes his remarks with malicious intent, rather than with the goal of intelligent discussion. While I can respect anonymity, I suggest that anyone prone to malicious speculations, or posting false information, should not be allowed to hide behind a pseudonym. It's one thing to be concerned about one's career and/or private life, when posting on a forum that involves a topic some people might be cri
 tical of, but it's quite another thing to use anonymity to spread lies.

As for "exposing myself," ;) while I could have made my comments anonymously, I think they would have had little impact, without confirming my identity, education and work-related experience. I'm not really happy knowing that anyone who ever "googles" me may judge me on my involvement with cryonics, but the opinions I've wanted to express are more important, to me, than the opinions of people who don't really know me.

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Message #32659
From: Gerald Monroe <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 07:14:22 -0500
Subject: Comments

--001636284ad490d0bc0489b17bb7

In reply to "John de Rivaz" : trained medical personal are going to make
mistakes like any other human being.  The whole reason we are having this
discussion is because human beings are *not *the perfectly self repairing,
accurately thinking beings we wish we were.  Otherwise, we'd already have
life extension technology used by everyone on the planet.
   Nevertheless, a trained medical professional with appropriate experience
is going to be much less likely to make a mistake than someone with 1/10 the
training and experience.  If you have a qualified surgeon leading the
preservations, you are much more likely to get a good freeze.  As I
understand it, Alcor uses what it has available, and at least some of the
time a surgeon has been there to do a case.
   Your examples of mistakes made by overworked NIH staff are not
really relevant to the discussion, because most of the time those errors are
the fault of administrators and support staff.

Objections to chemical fixation : there's a huge problem with chemical
fixation, and it has nothing to do with the technology.  In order for
cryonics to be further developed and widely accepted, it must be based upon
scientific principles.  We can't make further improvements if we don't have
any practical way to evaluate the improvements, and we can't get the medical
community to accept it if we don't have evidence and reasoned arguments.

  The catch is, we cannot produce the one thing that would silence all doubt
- a revival of a human being - without technology that is many decades away.
 However, this isn't the end of the story.  If cryonics as a medical
procedure put the human brain into a state that is demonstrably revivable -
and then froze it in a way that did not significantly change the molecular
structure of the brain - we could show using mathematics that all
significant information needed to reverse the process back a few minutes
still exists in the frozen brain.  Ultimately, the process could be proven
mathematically to work.  Frozen patients could have samples removed from
their brains and scanned, and the data could be used to prove that a
particular patient was still alive.

   All of the above can be worked on with contemporary technology.  With
sufficient funding and time, I think sufficient proof could be obtained and
published to silence most scientific skeptics.

   None of this is possible with chemical fixation, and you cannot
chemically fix living tissue and then revive it today like you can revive
living organisms frozen in liquid nitrogen.  You don't really have a way to
test your work.  It may actually be possible to remove samples from a
suspended patient and to revive individual cells, producing real proof of
viability.

--001636284ad490d0bc0489b17bb7

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Message #32660
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:25:15 +0000 (UTC)
From: Melody Maxim <[email protected]>
Subject: Response to John de Rivaz (Message 32651)

With all due respect to Mr. de Rivaz, I think it's unproductive to attempt to justify the extremely poor quality of care, in cryonics, by remarking on mistakes made in conventional medicine. The errors he mentions are fairly rare, when compared to the tremendous number of procedures being performed, in conventional medicine. I worked in open-heart surgery, for nearly a decade, and 96-97% of our patients lived to tell about it. (The small percentage, which did not, was largely comprised of people who arrived at the hospital in very critical condition.) Over the course of approximately 1,500 open-heart procedures, I can only recall witnessing two serious errors. The people who made those errors immediately acknowledged them and took full responsibility for them; thankfully, both cases had go
 od outcomes. As I previously wrote, on Cryonet:

"...a company trying to suspend people for decades, or centuries, 
should certainly be capable of performing hypothermic procedures, which were 
perfected decades ago, should they not? Yet, what would happen, if we were to 
substitute Alcor and/or SA staff members and equipment for what would normally 
be found in open-heart procedures? Would approximately 96% of their patients 
survive, as in conventional medicine? Given what I've seen, my bet would be 100%
would die. It's absurd to think people who can't even begin to match given 
technology, which has existed for decades, can surpass it."

When errors do get made, in conventional medicine, the people involved are held accountable. The same is not true, in cryonics, where people who make serious blunders have been praised for having "cryonics experience." Experience is meaningless, if it is negative experience, or no progress comes of it.

As for Mr. de Rivaz' comment, regarding cryonics patients being "unaware of what is happening," I think most of the people willing to pay up to $150K for a cryo-suspension are unaware of what is happening, overall, in the cryonics industry.

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Message #32661
From: "Gina Miller" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: 3D Nanotechnology graphic novel "Lazarus" just released
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 08:51:06 -0600

Lazarus is fully illustrated by computer generated 3 dimensional artwork. 
Lazarus is a tale of nanotechnology, immortality and one man's quest to 
discover the truth. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller is the author and artist of 
Lazarus.
Watch the trailer and find out more here:
http://www.nanogirl.com/author.html 

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Message #32662
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 08:11:22 -0700
Subject: John Horgan criticizes Ray Kurzweil's immortalism
From: MARK PLUS <[email protected]>

Singularity Schtick: Hi-tech moguls and The New York Times may buy it,
but you shouldn't

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=singularity-schtick-hi-tech-moguls-2010-06-23



-- 
Mark Plus
Life is short: Freeze hard!

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Message #32663
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:16:37 +0200
Subject: cheap Perpetual Trusts for Cryonicist
From: Jonano <[email protected]>

Perpetual Trusts are the most important thing for cryonicists now.

We should hurry to give to Alcor Members and SA, CI members a
perpetual trust service.

It should be the number one priority in cryonics right now.

A lawyer could provide us this information.

Poor people should have the possibility to have one.

We need to be pro active for that. Unfortunately, people waste their
time on other cryonics topics.

--Jon (Alcor member A-2432)

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Message #32664
Subject: Sequel to the unincorporated man
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:53:21 -0400
From: [email protected]

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I have discovered that Dani and Eytan Kollin have published a sequel to *the unincorporated man* (reviewed by me in CryoNet message #32367).  The first book included a minor cryonics theme with a major theme of conflicts between economic and political systems.  It was a very SMART book with some serious conflicts being discussed.

The new book is *the unincorporated war" (Tor Books, 2010).  I'm glad there is a sequel, because the first one seemed to end too suddenly.  A third book is promised.  (The lack of capitol letters in the title is on purpose.)

I haven't had time to read the new one and won't for a while; but if you do, please let us know what you think.  Intelligent writers deserve your support.

Steve Bridge



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