CryoNet #32705 - #32710

CryoNet - Wed 14 Jul 2010

    #32705: Re: Guilty for existing? [robomoon]
    #32706: Re: A proposal for a cryonic grave [Keith Henson]
    #32707: response to message 32702 [Steve Lawrence]
    #32708: Cryonet on Google, the ebola virus article is just after [Jonano]
    #32709: Larry Johnson's libels [Ettinger]
    #32710: Re: CryoNet #37201 -- Guilty for existing [swb1948]

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Message #32705
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:13:58 +0200 (CEST)
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Guilty for existing?

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/magazine/11cryonics-t.html?permid=142#comment142 now as a slidely abridged comment:

As a health care professional who has been involved in many "codes" over the last quarter century, I can tell you that lack of oxygen to the brain for more than five minutes, unless extreme circumstances like cold water drowning are involved, results in permanent damage even if the person is revived. Newborns deprived of oxygen often suffer cerebral palsy, older patients often suffer cognitive losses of varying degrees... To think that brain damage would not occur in cryo-preserved brains, even if they could be revived is absurd...

Above paragraph containing a comment from someone reading Until Cryonics Do Us Part, by Kerry Howley, 5 July, 2010.
 
However, it's so very easy to overlook these cognitive losses from lack of oxygen happening after 5 minutes. Yes, there are no patients confirming this. Fine. But the most likely reason why nobody who ended up with oxygen deprivation lacking an ice bath or other immediate ways of cool-down has confirmed this is: brain damage and the resulting disability to confirm cognitive losses are due to cognitive losses!
 
Even people, who, as newborns, have suffered from a drastic loss of intelligence due to lack of oxygen are likely to shut up and leave the faith in "state-of-the-art" brain preservation practiced by the leading cryonics providers intact. But if you ask me, I'd leave further observations on preserved brains resulting from professionally licensed medicine.

> Message #32701
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:49:29 -0700
> Subject: Guilty for existing?
> From: MARK PLUS <[email protected]>
> 
> The surprisingly negative comments appended to Kerry Howley's essay
> about male cryonicists and their hostile wives, as well as similar
> comments posted about it on other websites, make me judge this piece a
> failure in cryonics education and reputation building.
...

///

-- 
Hotelbewertung: BloB nicht die Katze im Sack kaufen bzw. den Floh auf der Matratze buchen - 
ob geschaftlich oder privat - erst das Hotel im Reise-Channel auf arcor.de checken!
http://www.arcor.de/rd/footer.hotel

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Message #32706
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:02:21 -0700
Subject: Re: A proposal for a cryonic grave
From: Keith Henson <[email protected]>

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 2:00 AM, Roko Mijic <[email protected]> wrote:

snip

> However, it
> is not clear whether such a vacuum could feasibly and reliably be
> maintained for 100 years. Further investigation is required.

Sorry to say but the answer is no.  At least not at the current state
of the art.

Over decades of time hydrogen leaks into the vacuum right through the
metal walls.

The dewars Alcor uses have to be pumped out once in a while.

Keith

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Message #32707
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:41:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Lawrence <[email protected]>
Subject: response to message 32702

--0-1319449098-1279035704=:1780

Although I haven't worked out any of the costs, wouldn't it be more appropriate to store the "remains" off planet.
Your system still requires energy and maintenance although at much lower levels.  And you also seem to assume that 100 years is a sufficient for reanimation, which, I think, is iffy.
Orbital storage would seem to bypass your two main concerns.  And, if you're concerned about dangers to the storage system from wars, financial instabilities, damage to the support system, etc., orbital storage would certainly minimize these concerns even more.
The only possible problem I can see, at least currently, is the danger involved is placing  the "cryosystem" into orbit.   That, and the cost.
Would you have an idea of whether the costs compare favorably to your system?
 
[email protected]



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Message #32708
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:05:00 +0200
Subject: Cryonet on Google, the ebola virus article is just after
From: Jonano <[email protected]>

Here on google: when you type: cryonet

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=cryonet&aq=f&aqi=g2g-s3&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=d4ae37bcc0eae736

I see the ebola virus article coming second just after cryonet, is
this me or is this real for everyone ?

Now Ben Best with this, cannot say this is not famous and sensitive
for one person.

--Jon

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Message #32709
From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Larry Johnson's libels

Melody Maxim continues to defend Larry Johnson's scurrilous attacks on  
Alcor and cryonics, relying on his apparently  respectable record as a  
paramedic. As I and others have pointed out, he does not seem to offer any  
evidence of any criminal or seriously unethical behavior at Alcor, just drivel  
such as calling a hammer a (gasp) surgical mallet.
 
One of the questions I asked Melody was why, if his more serious charges  
are backed by real evidence, have not the authorities taken action? The  
answer is below, with regard to one of his  serious charges, viz, that  Alcor 
deliberately hastened the death of a patient. The material  below is  taken 
from the Amazon web site. I think any reasonable person will conclude that  
the nurse, who calls Johnson a liar, is more credible than Johnson.
 -------------------------------------
The following is copied from Amazon.com  
44 of 58 people found the  following review helpful: 
1.0 out of 5 stars I WAS THE NURSE/I WAS THERE,  November 11, 2009 
By Ronald Hennes RN "CoastMedRN" (Los Angeles) - See all  my reviews 



This review is from: Frozen: My Journey into the  World of Cryonics, 
Deception, and Death (Hardcover) 
Very interesting book.  However, the part where it is claimed the death of 
the patient in North  Hollywood was "hastened" by an Alcor staff member is 
simply untrue. I was the RN  caring for the patient that night and he died of 
natural causes. His body was  turned over to Alcor per the prior 
arrangements (the patient and his partner  with Alcor) after I declared he had 
expired. At no time have I ever been a  member of Alcor nor been in their employ. 
And at no time did anyone other then  myself administer any medications to 
the patient that night that I am aware of  and I do not believe it possible 
that this could have been done. When I observed  and documented that he had no 
pulse, no respirations, and no heartbeat I  concluded he had expired. The 
authors of the book never contacted me. I was  interviewed by detectives from 
the LAPD several years ago when these charges  were first made and I told 
them what I am writing in this review.  






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Message #32710
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #37201 -- Guilty for existing
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:06:32 -0400
From: [email protected]

----------MB_8CCF118B203BC63_264_CB30_webmail-d014.sysops.aol.com


In Message #32701, Mark Plus says:  

>The surprisingly negative comments appended to Kerry Howley's essay
>about male cryonicists and their hostile wives, as well as similar
>comments posted about it on other websites, make me judge this piece a
>failure in cryonics education and reputation building.

After examining a lot of comments on our local newspaper's articles over the years (our local library system's budget problems have sadly made headlines), I have concluded that only a handful of idiots routinely comment on these articles, and that they are not typical of the newspaper's readers or the general public.  I have never heard someone in person make a comment anywhere as nasty as what is added to these web sites (against cryonics or against the library).  Yes, these people exist but the ability to type and to add comments to web sites does not equal an ability to think intelligently.  And for some reason people who are strongly motivated against a proposition are 100 times more likely to make comments on a web site than people who are for it.  People who are neutral don't take th
 e time to post at all.
 
I don't think you can conclude ANYTHING about the public response to cryonics other than an article like this gives some generally hostile people another opportunity to show off what they think are clever, sarcastic responses.  
 
I've seen similar (but milder) responses live at cryonics talks only in one venue-- two talks given to members of MENSA.  Most of the questions were calculated to show off to the others how "clever" the speaker was.  Humorously -- and frustratingly -- most of the "clever" questions were less intelligent than I routinely get from middle school students.  And the MENSA people who asked the questions didn't appear to listen to the answers!  I have refused all invitations to speak at MENSA groups ever since.
 
All of this does not mean that the general public is hostile, supportive, or indifferent to cryonics.  You can tell nothing either way from these responses.  They are not evidence of anything other than the personality of the people who like to post responses to newspapers.

Steve Bridge






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