CryoNet #32853 - #32856

CryoNet - Thu 23 Sep 2010

    #32853: AW: #32848: to Jens [Ettinger] [Jens Rabis]
    #32854: open letter to Robert Ettinger [david pizer]
    #32855: The brain has [Jonano]
    #32856: Re:  Mark Gubrud on Uploading [Daniel Crevier]

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Message #32853
From: "Jens Rabis" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: AW: #32848: to Jens [Ettinger]
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:04:02 +0200

Hi Bob,

this is good.

I think that the cryonics service providers should focus on:
Safe and sustainable (renewable energy) cryonics / suspension.

As what the customer wants to be reanimated, is a private matter. Private
matter, is whether biological, biomechanical, mechanical, upload .. a
mixture of these things, or even an animal. We can not dream in a dream, we
can not speculate in a speculation ... that scared only the imaginative
people.

What do I tell in writing (for my resurrection) is to be respected.
Resurrection technologies will come automatically. 
Therefore, we need not worry us. 

What is allowed in the future is for each a private poker game. Right now I
think I will want to come back for safety as a young man. Other forms in the
future may be banned forever!?

Best greetings 
Cryoson Jens
Germany-Berlin

Hi Bob, 

das ist gut.

Ich denke dass die Kryonik dienstleister, sich darauf konzentrieren sollten:
Sichere und nachhaltige (erneuerbare Energien) Kryonik / Suspension.

Als was der Kunde reanimiert werden will, ist Privatsache. Privatsache ist,
ob biologisch, biomechanisch, mechanisch, Upload .. eine Mischung aus diesen
Dingen oder auch als Tier. Wir konnen nicht in einem Traum traumen, wir
konnen nicht uber eine Spekulation spekulieren, das verschreckt nur die
phantasievollen Menschen.

Was ich schriftlich veranlasse (fur meine Wiederauferstehung) soll
eingehalten werden.

Auferstehungs-Technologien werden automatisch kommen. Darum mussen wir uns
nicht kummern. Was in Zukunft erlaubt ist, ist fur jeden ein privates
Pokerspiel. Im Moment denke ich, ich werde sicherheitshalber als junger Mann
wiederkommen wollen. 
Andere Formen werden in Zukunft vielleicht verboten?!

Beste GruBe
Cryson Jens 
Germany-Berlin



Message #32848
From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 07:21:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: to Jens

You wrote:
 

>Important question is: Is there a written last will, such as  
cryo-customers,
>cryo-friends, cryo-family members want to  resurrect?!

I'm not sure what this means. If it refers to possible requests or  
instructions of patients, any patient may leave a record of his requests or

preferences, and while there is no formal policy that I recall, I'm certain
the  
future directors of CI will do their best to accomodate any reasonable 
recorded  request of a patient.
 
Be well.
 
Bob

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Message #32854
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:12:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <[email protected]>
Subject: open letter to Robert Ettinger

Robert

'Been reading your posts about why uploading is not survival of a person.

You are still (after all these years) the smartest person in cryonics in an all-around way. (and by the way, unsurpassed in ethics and morality also).  I think the point that uploading lovers are missing is that - yes information can someday be loaded into a computer that mimics a natural person, but - no that thing is NOT the person that it mimics.

You are arguing about what it is that makes a person a person, they are arguing that uploading will be able to create something that seems like a person. 

Having existed with Uploading Lovers (heck some of them are even my friends) for many years now, I believe they are as firmly entrenched in their beliefs as traditional religious persons believe that their souls are going to Heaven after death here on Earth (I have some of these friends too and I hope they are right, but I am not canceling my arrangements for cryonics suspension at legal death). 

Best regards,

David Pizer

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Message #32855
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:59:05 +0200
Subject: The brain has
From: Jonano <[email protected]>

The brain has 10 billions of neurons.

Each neuron can create 3 millions of different synapse connections.

10 billions * 3 millions = the "number of calculation" it will be
needed in order to revive Alcor Patients.

--Jon

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Message #32856
From: Daniel Crevier <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re:  Mark Gubrud on Uploading
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:14:15 -0400

I finally got around to reading Mark Gubrud's piece in The New Atlantis:
http://futurisms.thenewatlantis.com/2010/06/why-transhumanism-wont-work.html
If I understand correctly, the argument boils down to this: "What uploaders 
really claim is that they could transfer a person's soul into a computer. As 
souls don't exist, this is impossible. QED."
Please! Uploading has nothing to do with the transmigration of souls. 
Uploaders at times use loaded terms like "essence" (Moravec) or "fundamental 
identity" (Kurzweil) simply because there is no simple English expression 
for "whatever physical mechanism causes a particular conscious experience". 
The real assumption at the basis of uploading is that such a mechanism could 
be built out of materials other than cytoplasm. If this is so, then thought 
experiments like the gradual replacement of a person's brain with such a 
mechanism strongly suggest that this operation would not interrupt the 
continuity of consciousness. The uploaded consciousness would then logically 
be the same as the preexisting biological one.
I think Gubrud's real beef against uploading is that he doesn't believe 
anything non biological can be conscious, as when he asks (strongly 
suggesting a positive answer) " ... is the 'mere jelly' [of cytoplasm], once 
appropriately patterned ... what real human beings are made of - that and 
nothing else that is known to science?"  Indeed the only conscious beings we 
know of for sure (ourselves) are made of cytoplasm, but then it was the only 
material available to evolution for producing conscious entities. If someone 
from a faraway country told you that the only houses they know of are made 
of straw, at that this proves that houses can't be built of any other 
material, would you believe them?
So yes, uploading is based on an assumption, but a fairly plausible one, and 
imho Gubrud's discussion doesn't do anything to disprove it.

Daniel Crevier 

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