CryoNet #32857 - #32860

CryoNet - Fri 24 Sep 2010

    #32857: To Dave Pizer and Robert Ettinger [Keith Henson]
    #32858: Selfish Chilean miners [MARK PLUS]
    #32859: The proof that god does not exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wi... [Jonano]
    #32860: Re: CryoNet #32853 - #32856 [Freeposity]

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Message #32857
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:59:15 -0700
Subject: To Dave Pizer and Robert Ettinger
From: Keith Henson <[email protected]>

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 2:00 AM, david pizer <[email protected]> wrote:

> Robert
>
> 'Been reading your posts about why uploading is not survival of a person.
>
> You are still (after all these years) the smartest person in cryonics in an all-around way. (and by the way, unsurpassed in ethics and morality also).  I think the point that uploading lovers are missing is that - yes information can someday be loaded into a computer that mimics a natural person, but - no that thing is NOT the person that it mimics.

Couple of days ago I posted how a person could take completely
reversible, no memory loss, not even consciousness loss, steps from
unmodified human to being a disembodied upload and reverse all those
steps back to an unmodified human state.

> You are arguing about what it is that makes a person a person, they are arguing that uploading will be able to create something that seems like a person.

Assume the technology I described works as stated (it's only a slight
upgrade of what's needed to get you back from the frozen state), where
in the process does a person cease being human?  When the biological
brain resumes functioning do they become human again?  If they keep
the memories about what they experienced while an being an upload are
they less of a human than if the memories were discarded and their
brain resumed functioning without memory of their experiences in the
uploaded state?

I am just an engineer.  The philosophy of these arguments is really
hard for me to parse.  I will say that Han's Moravec's one way trip to
becoming a bush robot does not appeal to me, in fact I find it
downright repellent.

> Having existed with Uploading Lovers (heck some of them are even my friends) for many years now, I believe they are as firmly entrenched in their beliefs as traditional religious persons believe that their souls are going to Heaven after death here on Earth (I have some of these friends too and I hope they are right, but I am not canceling my arrangements for cryonics suspension at legal death).

I am not canceling either, but it would be really nice to just live
into the era when medical technology gets good enough to avoid being
suspended at all.

I have a lot of sympathy with your position being (as some people
deride) a "matter chauvinist."  But the way I describe to upload is
such a smooth and reversible path that I really have no idea of where
you could put in a stake and say:  "Beyond this point he did not
survive."

Best wishes,

Keith

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Message #32858
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:38:35 -0700
Subject: Selfish Chilean miners
From: MARK PLUS <[email protected]>

Imagine the nerve of those trapped miners in Chile who expect an
expensive and technologically sophisticated rescue effort which has
even involved NASA.

Somebody should tell those guys to "get over themselves" and accept
the fact that their time to die has come.

--
Mark Plus
Life is short: Freeze hard!

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Message #32859
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:32:02 +0200
Subject: The proof that god does not exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
From: Jonano <[email protected]>

Here is the proof that god does not exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

If complexity is allowed in this universe, increasing complexity, then
there is no god.

If the universe has a direction, then the universe has a meaning, and
we have a chance to survive.

The universe is a self organised system. With no god, no authority and no plan.

This is the proof, that is made, god does not exist and self
organisation is the theory.

--Jon

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Message #32860
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:15:02 -0500
Subject: Re: CryoNet #32853 - #32856
From: Freeposity <[email protected]>

>From: david pizer <[email protected]>
>Subject: open letter to Robert Ettinger

>Robert

>'Been reading your posts about why uploading is not survival of a person.

>You are still (after all these years) the smartest person in cryonics in an all-around way. (and by the way, unsurpassed in ethics and >morality also).  I think the point that uploading lovers are missing is that - yes information can someday be loaded into a computer >that mimics a natural person, but - no that thing is NOT the person that it mimics.

>You are arguing about what it is that makes a person a person, they are arguing that uploading will be able to create something that >seems like a person.

>Having existed with Uploading Lovers (heck some of them are even my friends) for many years now, I believe they are as firmly >entrenched in their beliefs as traditional religious persons believe that their souls are going to Heaven after death here on Earth (I have >some of these friends too and I hope they are right, but I am not canceling my arrangements for cryonics suspension at legal death).


This condescension is really ugly.




-- 
Money isn't speech.
A Corporation isn't a person.
http://www.movetoamend.org/

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