CryoNet #33083 - #33087

CryoNet - Mon 29 Nov 2010

    #33083: again, known strategies [Ettinger]
    #33084: Res ipsa loquitur [un person]
    #33085: Re: #33076 [doctor Robert]
    #33086: Re: Chastising Charles [Keith Henson]
    #33087: Governing the Dead [David Stodolsky]

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Message #33083
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:04:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: again, known strategies

DSS and many others seem to me to remain off target, including mislabeling  
and giving insufficient recognition to proven ploys.
 
First, "religion" for most purposes does not relate to divinity but to such 
 ordinary assets as fellowship and supportive interaction, exemplified in 
part by  family, and including communism. Such types of support and morale 
building are  found almost everywhere, from families to ideologies to 
political parties to  fraternal organizations to business associations. Nothing 
prevents cryonicists  from offering these things without counterproductive 
labels--nothing except the  tendency of cryonicsts to be individualistic and 
logical in a narrow sense,  rather than group oriented and giving recognition to 
psychological realities. 
 
More specifically, experience tells us, as DSS and others have repeatedly  
recognized, that one-to-one or one-to-several recruitment efforts work best 
with  your own close family and friends, provided you have patience and 
avoid sharp  edges. These efforts HAVE worked and ARE working. The wheel has 
been  invented and we just have to keep on using it and quit wasting breath on 
some  wished-for magic.  
 
Personality of course is important. Some individuals, such as Mike Darwin  
in the past, have shown remarkable effectiveness in one-on-one recruitment,  
while others will have to work much harder at doing what does not come  
naturally. We don't have any golden-glottis preachers at present of whom I am  
aware, but some of us are relatively good at it and can get better with  
attention and practice. 
 
Emphasize love, not logic. Avoid talk of radical change in the future. 
 
Robert Ettinger
 
In a message dated 11/28/2010 5:00:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[email protected] writes:

CryoNet  - Sun 28 Nov 2010

#33082: Re: Chastising Charles [David  Stodolsky]

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Message  #33082
Subject: Re: Chastising Charles
From: David Stodolsky  <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 22:40:28  +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On  27 Nov 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:
> 
> The rich folks need  our numbers. WIthout us they have no chance.

I don't see how cryonics  can make the transition from being a fringe 
movement to being mainstream,  without a political confrontation with what we 
might term bio-conservatism.  This would include both what are now recognized 
as conservative forces, eg,  the Catholic Church, and radicals in the 
environmental movement - most often  considered to be on the Left. The more extreme 
elements in both camps have  used violence. Assassinations of doctors 
providing abortions and attacks on  animal labs are examples. 

However, there are also mainstream forces  that set the stage for the more 
extreme elements. The mainstream forces  complain of resource shortages, eg, 
"Peak Oil", "Global Warming", and, in  general, support the view that 
having less people would be a good idea. The  old "Population Bomb" nonsense is 
recycled on a regular  basis:

http://www.ontheissuesmagazine.com/2009fall/2009fall_hartmann.php

These  views set the cultural climate and make it easy for the extremists 
to recruit  new members. Extremists are also 'used' by the mainstream. An 
example of this  was the verbal attack on the Tides Foundation by a talk show 
host that  resulted in some gun nut hopping in his car and driving off to 
liquidate the  employees of the Foundation. Current suspension providers are 
vulnerable to  this type of vigilante action. Countermeasures against these 
kinds of threats  are very expensive and would be a lot more effective with a 
greater scale of  operations.


> 
>  I have shown a number of times how  the Bible supports cryonics.

There is no evidence that this kind of  logical appeal will change 
attitudes toward cryonics. In fact, there is pretty  good evidence it will not. 


> Dude, religion is in our GENES. It  is there, built-in. Hardwired.

The success of secular ideologies, like  communism, argues against this 
view. Inclusion in a meaning defining  (sub)culture seems to be what is 
required.



>  Actually,  my messages in this vein are meant for young people who are 
interested in  cryonics and may in the future come across my messages. I am 
planting seeds in  the brains of future cryos. I am not trying to convince 
the older cryos who  already have a set worldview. 

In general, young people consider  themselves immortal and will not take 
action. Existential concerns rise in  middle age. Once the person has found a 
'solution' to mortality, then they  again stop thinking about the problem. 

So, the best chance of getting  someone to enroll is during the middle-age 
period of concern. However,  accurately targeting this segment is likely to 
be difficult and the magnitude  of the mental transition from the 
conventional to the cryonicist view may be  too large for the standard marketing 
approaches. 

Life long involvement  in a culture is the normal channel for transmission 
of these types of views.  This type of structure is also more likely to be 
resistant to financial  instability and other types of shocks. So, some new 
strategy involving groups  seems necessary. Even extreme individualists 
function within a cultural  framework, whether they wish to accept this or not. 
Therefore, the kind of  dispute we are seeing above is likely to be minimized 
with a new  cultural/group strategy for growth. 


dss


David  Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype:  davidstodolsky


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Message #33084
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 05:22:47 -0800 (PST)
From: un person <[email protected]>
Subject: Res ipsa loquitur

platt wrote:

"Well, un, you can't have it both ways. If cryonics is still so weird that you can't even tell people you're a cryonicist, why do you imagine we can offer it successfully to people of faith who are probably more conservative in many attitudes than people in the two subcultures that I have already suggested?"

Cryonics is in the bible. Arguably. And therefore not weird. Not if it is presented as being IN the Bible. You uber-nerds have not done that.

As for the hiring thing, whoever is to blame, can we at least admit that cryonics hiring is a disaster area, or nearly such? Cryonicists are NOT people persons. Far from it. And they are horrible at reading people. Reading books? They are great at that. But we need to acknowledge our weaknesses.

"As for people in my small town thinking that I am weird for my history in cryonics, apparently it doesn't bother them. "


How do you know? Only if they tell you do you know. You aint good enough at reading people to know otherwise.


you wrote:

"Maybe your small town is more conservative than mine, or maybe people just don't care. I suspect the latter. The typical outlook seems to be that the disposition of dead bodies is not a hot-button issue."


You live out near sedona, etc, a unique area of foo foo upper class types and quasi-survivalists and well to do retirees. A very tolerant group when it comes to accepting unusual philosophies, I would say. I live in blue state middle america, and of course they are nowhere near as tolerant as where you live. Never mind Red State America....

Here is the real issue when it comes to how well YOUR group has been able to grow cryonics in the last, what, 40 years plus or so: res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself. 40 plus years later, with oodles of publicity, and YOUR ideas have yielded 1000 signups. You have diligently constructed some very decent infrastructure and support facilties. 

Build it and they will come, eh?
Ah, no. It takes more than bricks and mortar and the Dale Carnegie approach to sell cryonics. That is obvious. Res ipsa loquitur.

Therefore, your strategies suck. You have one of the greatest ideas in the history of mankind. And solid infrastructure. Cryopreservatives, etc etc.

And over 40 years later, you have 1000 signed up. That is all. That comes to 25 per year from a population pool that went from, what, 300 million to 400 million, at least (counting the english speaking western nations).

Heck, there are churches that have snake handling ceremonies out in red state america that have more members than alcor. And they take in more money from their members, too.

That sucks. 

You don't understand homo sapiens. You understand nerds like yourselves. And not just any nerds. A tiny fraction of the total population of nerds. Uber-nerds. That is who we target.

Res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself.

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Message #33085
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 11:20:27 -0800
Subject: Re: #33076
From: doctor Robert <[email protected]>

Fear of Death:  Actually, if, as we should, acknowledge that cryonic
does NOT offer immortality, but rather a potentially very long life.
Then not only does cryonic's not help one avoid the fear of death, but
should it work, expose us to the same fear TWICE... Again, I believe
that rational cryonicists are motivated by the Love of Life as opposed
to the Fear of Death.   Dr. Robert Newport.

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Message #33086
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:37:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Chastising Charles
From: Keith Henson <[email protected]>

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 3:00 AM, From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 27 Nov 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

snip

>> Dude, religion is in our GENES. It is there, built-in. Hardwired.
>
> The success of secular ideologies, like communism, argues against this view. Inclusion in a meaning defining (sub)culture seems to be what is required.

Not really.  Communism apparently can occupy the "mental site" that is
usually filled with conventional religions.  The ability to pick up a
religion or something in that class can still be hardwired by
evolution.  Decades back I proposed that you could measure how much
some belief is like a religion by seeing how much having belief "A"
competed with having a conventional religion.  This is based on an
analogy to cell molecular docking sites and how much (for example)
opiates compete with endorphins.

>>  Actually, my messages in this vein are meant for young people who are interested in cryonics and may in the future come across my messages. I am planting seeds in the brains of future cryos. I am not trying to convince the older cryos who already have a set worldview.
>
> In general, young people consider themselves immortal and will not take action. Existential concerns rise in middle age. Once the person has found a 'solution' to mortality, then they again stop thinking about the problem.

This is an accurate analysis.  And when you think about it, it is
probably the best way to deal with the situation humans (prior to the
current era) could do.

> So, the best chance of getting someone to enroll is during the middle-age period of concern. However, accurately targeting this segment is likely to be difficult and the magnitude of the mental transition from the conventional to the cryonicist view may be too large for the standard marketing approaches.

You are probably right.

> Life long involvement in a culture is the normal channel for transmission of these types of views. This type of structure is also more likely to be resistant to financial instability and other types of shocks. So, some new strategy involving groups seems necessary. Even extreme individualists function within a cultural framework, whether they wish to accept this or not. Therefore, the kind of dispute we are seeing above is likely to be minimized with a new cultural/group strategy for growth.

The most receptive group currently around is the transhumanists.  And
even there, the percentage penetration is not high.

Keith

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Message #33087
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Subject: Governing the Dead
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 10:53:50 +0100

http://www.diis.dk/sw102152.asp

Within international studies, the dead would seem to make up an exotic but marginal subject of research and policy analysis. So much of international relations deal with how to ensure survival, peace, cooperation, and development; and yet, dead bodies have a significant but rarely recognized presence in national and international politics. One thing is the exceptional cases of soldiers retuning in body bags, disaster victims being buried in mass graves, suicide bombers blowing themselves to pieces, and unaccounted for dead civilians in counterinsurgency campaigns. But another thing is the significance of death in everyday lives, where state and international regulations of dead bodies provide a silent but indispensable precondition for senses of order. Moreover, dead bodies and human remai
 ns often play important roles in the making and transformation of political communities, surfacing again and again through memorials, exhumations, repatriations, and reburials in times of po
 litical turmoil.
 
At this seminar, John Borneman will speak about the political significance of the bodies of dead leaders, while Antonius Robben will talk about the political role of exhumations of disappeared victims of the dirty war in Argentina. 
 
The seminar is organized as part of an international workshop "Shifting Power and Sovereignty 
and a PhD course.
 
John Borneman is professor of anthropology at Princeton University where he works in fields of the political and legal anthropology, including issues of authority, memory and secularism. His extensive list of publications includes among many other titles the booksSettling Accounts: Violence, Justice, and Accountability in Postsocialist States (Princeton University Press, 1997) and Death of the Father: Toward an Anthropology of the End in Political Authority (Berghahn Books, 2003).
 
Antonius Robben is professor of anthropology at Utrecht University, working on medical, psychological and political anthropology and with special interest in political violence, trauma and social reconstruction. His books include the edited volume Survival and Cultures Under Siege: Collective Violence and Trauma (Cambridge University Press, 2000), Death, Mourning and Burial: A Cross-Cultural Reader (Wiley-Blackwell, 2004), and Political Violence and Trauma in Argentina (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2005).
 


David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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