CryoNet #33088 - #33089

CryoNet - Tue 30 Nov 2010

    #33088: Re: Cryonics is in the bible [John de Rivaz]
    #33089: Re: CryoNet #33083 - #33087 [David Stodolsky]

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Message #33088
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Cryonics is in the bible
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:40:17 -0000

Several people have made this suggestion. Obviously cryopreservation has not been mentioned by name, but is there anywhere a suggestion about people being preserved for even a short a time awaiting revival in this world by some other process? 

I would love to be shown that I am wrong by a quotation, but I don't think there is one.

The character called Jesus did "raise the dead" and told his followers to do likewise. Maybe there was a historical event to trigger this idea, but really all this means is that someone given up for dead wasn't dead and could be restored by someone who knew better than the masses. This is what cryonics does. It is the first part of a two part process to restore someone given up for dead. The second part may happen in the future. The trouble is that today the masses who think they know better are far more intelligent and powerful, through their institutions.

Can readers suggest other Biblical quotations that may support extreme life extension?

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CryoNet 
  To: [email protected] 
  Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 10:00 AM
  Subject: CryoNet #33083 - #33087


  <del>
  Cryonics is in the bible. Arguably. And therefore not weird. Not if it is presented as being IN the Bible. You uber-nerds have not done that.
  <del>


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Message #33089
Subject: Re: CryoNet #33083 - #33087
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 18:30:47 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On 29 Nov 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:
> 
> First, "religion" for most purposes does not relate to divinity but to such 
> ordinary assets as fellowship and supportive interaction, exemplified in 
> part by  family, and including communism.

While there are scales that try to define and measure religion in a rigorous manner, it remains an ill defined term. I use it in the conventional way:

	. a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
	. an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


> Such types of support and morale 
> building are  found almost everywhere, from families to ideologies to 
> political parties to  fraternal organizations to business associations. Nothing 
> prevents cryonicists  from offering these things without counterproductive 
> labels--nothing except the  tendency of cryonicsts to be individualistic and 
> logical in a narrow sense,  rather than group oriented and giving recognition to 
> psychological realities. 

Yet we have no formal strategies to overcome the tendency of cryonicists to be individualistic and logical in a narrow sense.


> 
> More specifically, experience tells us, as DSS and others have repeatedly  
> recognized, that one-to-one or one-to-several recruitment efforts work best 
> with  your own close family and friends, provided you have patience and 
> avoid sharp  edges. These efforts HAVE worked and ARE working. 

If person-to-person efforts were working - a contagion model-, we would see exponential growth. 

According to standard measures, growth is declining. A fixed number on new persons per year has been correctly designated as stagnation. 


> 
> Fear of Death:  Actually, if, as we should, acknowledge that cryonic
> does NOT offer immortality, but rather a potentially very long life.
> Then not only does cryonic's not help one avoid the fear of death, but
> should it work, expose us to the same fear TWICE... Again, I believe
> that rational cryonicists are motivated by the Love of Life as opposed
> to the Fear of Death.   

Terror management theory is probably the best approach to understanding the position cryonics plays in modern culture. It suggests that cryonics isn't considered a medical procedure, but competes with other approaches to death transcendence. 


>>> Dude, religion is in our GENES. It is there, built-in. Hardwired.
>> 
>> The success of secular ideologies, like communism, argues against this view. Inclusion in a meaning defining (sub)culture seems to be what is required.
> 
> Not really.  Communism apparently can occupy the "mental site" that is
> usually filled with conventional religions.  The ability to pick up a
> religion or something in that class can still be hardwired by
> evolution.  Decades back I proposed that you could measure how much
> some belief is like a religion by seeing how much having belief "A"
> competed with having a conventional religion.  This is based on an
> analogy to cell molecular docking sites and how much (for example)
> opiates compete with endorphins.

Terror management theory shows that this kind of physiological explanation is unnecessary.


>> Life long involvement in a culture is the normal channel for transmission of these types of views. This type of structure is also more likely to be resistant to financial instability and other types of shocks. So, some new strategy involving groups seems necessary. Even extreme individualists function within a cultural framework, whether they wish to accept this or not. Therefore, the kind of dispute we are seeing above is likely to be minimized with a new cultural/group strategy for growth.
> 
> The most receptive group currently around is the transhumanists.  And
> even there, the percentage penetration is not high.

Since transhumanism is an umbrella term covering multiple views, this should be no surprise. Also, transhumanism doesn't offer a formalize group approach to cryonics.


dss

David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

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