Re: Re: The Mad Man

Does the concept of "sex with children" (or minors) bother me? I confess the answer really eludes me. Social standards change drastically -- as do the conceptions of morality. Romeo and Juliet for example (even though they were both "underage.") I am a retired teacher -- first of high school and then college -- and I remember (so long ago)at my first teaching assignment the guidance councillor (a plumply pleasant older woman) advising sternly: "NEVER shut the classroom door when you are alone with a female student." Of course those were the days when homosexuality was so dimly perceived as a possibility (almost said "problem") among teachers that her advice implied a male teacher could shut the door when speaking to a male student!!!!

I am now a very old man whose life has settled down into a rather boring routine, but I still think and I still have opinions. So I can only reply: "Sex with children?" It depends. What about "Sex between children?" What is one boy is 12 and the other is 16? What if one boy is 16 and the other is 18? Technically the 18-year-old is guilty of lewd actions upon a minor! This 18-year-old is guilty of having sex with a "child." Yet this be true in all cases.

I am using sex between males in my discussion simply because it tends to be "easier." And, please, I never think any type of sex is correct when one participant has some sort of direct control over the other, i.e. a boss and a worker, a teacher and a student, a sitter and a charge, a step-father and a step-son.

And I am using "sex" in its most basic sense with the concept of "real love" -- which can be a complication of great significance. Can an 18-year old really love a 16-year-old? Yes, of course, but should they wait to have sex until they are 19 and 17? Complication after complication. 

Rape is not sex: it is degradation! Rape, of whatever kind, is not love: it is horrible misuse of power! Oh, I see that I am getting in to deep to continue and to not twist and wind the perceptions of the list members. Guess what I am saying is: Each case of sex between a minor (13-16) and an adult (17 -25?) should be approached and studied individually. Note that I say SHOULD not MUST. I would like to hear other opinions, and I hope that I have not offended anyone.
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy_Fawkes99 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [delany-list] Re: The Mad Man
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 07:31:51 -0000

> 
> There is a sentence in Mad Man--putatively the writings of Timothy
> Hasler--about how "I need Dennis so much more than he needs me".
> I'm paraphrasing but that sentence seemed pretty autbiographical.
> 
> I would disagree with Steve M. that knowing the author's biography
> is rarely of value in fiction.  I think there's a more complex
> relationship going on.  Does anyone remember the Borges story about
> the guy who's going to lead the life that will lead him to write Don
> Quixote word-for-word, but with an entirely different meaning?  It
> seems so quaint now when the literary theory consensus seems to be
> that we should isolate the text from its real-world moorings before
> we analyze it.  In a sense, though, Borges was advocating two
> positions:  that the text is entirely subjective and that the
> author's life is essential to interpreting the text.
> 
> On that same note, it genuinely bothers me how much sex with kids
> (or minors) pops up in Delany's books.  I've read maybe ten of his
> books at this point and pedohilic stuff pops up in almost all of
> them.  Does this bother anyone else?
> 
> 
> --- In [email protected], Steve M <lists@m...> wrote:
> >
> > At 8:45 AM +0100 12/24/05, Henrick Pålsson wrote:
> > >  I reading now The Mad Man I have only read  50 >pages so far, 
> > but I wonder how biograhical The >Mad Man is. I know  its 
> > fiction, but is some >thing about Delanys own life. I got that 
> > >felling when I read. Anyway it is a great book. >I also have his 
> > About  Writing and hope he will >write more great books. He is 
> > after all my >favorite writer both fiction and non-fiction.
> > >
> > >   Merry christmas and happy new year I wish all Delany-fan.
> > >
> > >   Cheerio!
> > >   Henrick
> >
> > I think that's one of those questions that rarely is of much 
> > value with fiction. As you read Delany's explanation of "Write 
> > what you know" in his book "About Writing" it becomes clear how 
> > slippery this question is.
> >
> > What can be said: Certainly the descriptions of New York City are 
> > informed by Delany's own observation of that city. Certainly the 
> > fact that his current lover was homeless informed his portraits 
> > of homeless men in the story. Certainly his visits to adult movie 
> > houses informed that portion of the book. And certainly his 
> > recent career in various universities informed his writing about 
> > those aspects of the book and about the characters that come from 
> > or pass through that milieu. However, "informed by" is different 
> > from "based on."
> >
> > Read "The Motion of Light in Water" and "Times Square Red, Times 
> > Square Blue" and 1984, as well as the graphic novel about his 
> > relationship with Dennis to get biographical information about 
> > his sexual and intellectual life. If you do, you will see 
> > correspondences--character traits that show up in someone 
> > encountered in his memoirs that are remapped onto a fictional 
> > character, but few if any one-to-one matchups. In the same way, 
> > some of the experiences in Delany's triadic relationship with 
> > Marilyn Hacker and Bob Folsom certainly informed some of the 
> > dynamics of the relationship of Kidd, Lanya, and Denny in 
> > Dhalgren, but Kidd, Lanya and Denny are not Delany, Hacker and 
> > Folsom. There is no simple one-to-one correspondence.
> >
> > In short, it's a work of fiction that, like any good work of 
> > fiction, draws on its writer's life, but if you read the memoirs, 
> > it's clear that The Mad Man is not a roman a clef.
> >
> > However, your sense that "this must be real" is a testament to 
> > how well it is written, how well he used real experience to make 
> > the fictional occurrences feel real.
> >


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