Re: Ash of Stars

Don't recall the Adorno quote, though there are untold riches in MINIMA 
MORALIA. Once again on Richard Wright's THE OUTSIDER: another view of 
criminality is offered, for the main character, who is a "thought 
criminal" as well as a murderer (though more by force of circumstance 
than real ill will), argues with the detective on his trail (though the 
detective doesn't know it yet), who is also an outsider and thus also a 
"criminal", that outsiderness, is, in the definitional structure of 
society, criminality. This perspectival criminality allows one to 
understand, and up to a point even identify with, actual criminality, 
but only in certain respects. There is also the ever-present threat of 
chaos. But the outsider perspective allows one to analyze, and hence 
structure, chaos. This could be considered quite Delanyesque. 

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:14:12 -0400, Zvi Gilbert wrote:

               I think the best description of criminality in 
opposition to society in
early Delany is the story 'Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious
Stones', one of my very favorites. In it, the narrator is a criminal trying
to move up in the world, and consorts with artists (the Singers),
politicians, and other criminals; I'm sure one could draw several
entertaining quotes about the putative relationship of criminality and
society from that story (something about "The will to steal"; I don't have
the text in front of me.). It's all a bit of a lark and I wouldn't say that
it's 'true' in any real way that makes a difference to, say, theories of
incarceration. It's an exceedingly romantic view of the artist, as Dan'l
points out. 

Also:
The criminal is the creative artist; the detective only the critic. 
-- G.K. Chesterton, The Blue Cross

Every work of art is an uncommitted crime. 
-- THEODOR WIESENGRUND ADORNO, Minima Moralia

--Z

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 12:01 PM,  wrote:

> Actually, I don't think that criminals stand in opposition to society
> at all. But rather than argue the obvious, when I think of this my
> first thoughts go to Richard Wright, who wondered about the potential
> of outsiderness in NATIVE SON (1940) and THE OUTSIDER (1953), both
> with gruesome implicit conclusions. Real criminality is not remotely
> oppositional. But there's the question of the potentials of the
> outsider perspective, explored by Wright in all his work from at least
> 1940 on. Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
> product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
> has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
> criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
> he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy. 
>
> But there's something else I vaguel recall from BABEL-17, as much as
> I can remember from three and a half decades ago. Was not the
> criminality of one of the main characters due to his inarticulateness,
> his inability to conceptualize his experience? This factor changes the
> entire perspective. 
>
>
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:26:58 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>
> >
> > Ralph,
> >
> > The "union of the criminal and the artist" comes, I think, from two
> things. 
> >
> > The first is the existence of a few notable poets in history who were
> > outlaws (notably Francois Villon, arguably the best French poet of
> > his century). 
> >
> > The second, and more important to my mind, is that both artists and
> > criminals stand in opposition to society. 
> >
> > --Dan'l
> >
> > To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> > From: [email protected]
> > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 04:18:19 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [delany-list] Ash of Stars
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I haven't read Delany himself in many years, but reading the first
> > few essays in this book have blown my mind. There are certain aspects
> > of contemporary academic writing and ideology in the book, and the
> > framing of academic concerns, that always irritate me, but the
> > observations of some of these authors give me something new to think
> > about as well as to pinpoint my particular reactions to Delany, to
> > reception of Delany, to subcultures, etc. I don't believe in the
> > union of the criminal and the artist, by the way. That kind of
> > thinking has got to go. On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:05:46 -0400,
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, I finally located a cheap copy in a used book store, been on my
> > list for some time. Actually, though, it's been some years since I
> > read anything by or about Delany.Maybe the attempts to decipher k>
> > Leslie Steiner will pique my interest. [Non-text portions of this
> > message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
> > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R. 
> > Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
> == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R. Delany. 
> ==Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]