RE: Power and civilization

 =


-----Original Message-----
From: brin-l-bounces-r0TUnz/JSrZWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:brin-l-bounces-r0TUnz/JSrZWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jon Louis Mann
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 7:47 PM
To: brin-l-r0TUnz/JSrZWk0Htik3J/[email protected]
Subject: Power and civilization

> The measure of a civilization could be said to be its consumption of =

> energy and how it uses resources.
> Conspicuous v. sustainable...
> Jon
 =

> > From: [email protected]
> Twas in Last And First Men, by Olaf Stapledon, I think, where all =

> future civilizations had their power based upon alcohol.
> Nothing stored from the=A0past=A0was left.

I never could get through Stapleton.  =

What was destroyed; all other sources of power?  =

How could that be?


> > From: John Garcia <[email protected]>
> I'm reading John Varley's Slow Apocalypse. The premise is that all =

> un-processed petroleum is destroyed by an act of bio-terrorism. In the =

> middle of it right now, but so far it's scaring the spit out of me.
> john

Years ago George R.R. Martin wrote a pilot called "Doors".  If I remember
correctly it was about an alternative Earth where a virus was created to
absorb oil spills and it ended up eating up all traces of petrochemicals
everywhere on Earth and civilization went back to the horse and buggy days.
(not necessarily a bad thing!~) Jon Mann

> >The measure of a civilization could be said to be
> Its consumption of energy and how it uses resources. Conspicuous v. =

> sustainable...
> Jon Mann

> At what point was civilization sustainable without depending on =

> unknowable innovations in the future?=A0 It would have to be before =

> steel, because blacksmithing almost deforested England before coal was =

> found and used (back around 1000 I think).=A0 Going to Africa, and =

> seeing the sustainable organic farming they used to get 5 bushels/acre =

> out of depleted soil reminded me of what my Zambian daughter Neli =

> argued, to no avail, to the government of Uganda.=A0 That using natural =

> methods would just have it's people starve, like they have for =

> centuries.=A0 Unfortunately, the European Greens were more powerful in =

> their persuasion....and Uganda will remain poor until they stop =

> listening to them.=A0 It's hard because the EU policy is dedicated to =

> protecting inefficient EU (mostly French) farmers.
> Dan M.

>You have a Zambian daughter, Dan? =


Two.  The eldest, Neli, came to the US about 10 years ago.  She is an
ecconomist who was a Brookings Institute fellow for a couple of years,
concentrating on African development.  She was always second author on the
papers she wrote, with a big name as first author.  She was quietly upset
until she found out high government officials called Brookings to complain
about the papers and talked with the big wig instead of yelling at her.  We
were in Zambia for two weeks in August, with 10 from the US (including Neli
and her American husband) and 5 from Zambia and went all over Zambia as one
big happy American-African family.  We went to the home villages of both of
Neli's parents.  I got to dance in lion skins with the village wariors at
her mom's village.


>I have no clue at what point civilization was sustainable after the leap
from hunter gatherer to =

>agriculture to industrial society.  I suppose it won't happen unless
humanity matures beyond greedy,
>pleasure seeking immediate gratification, self centered behavior, and that
probably won't happen =

>unless there is a singularity event.

Actually, most commodities (e.g. iron and copper) are used less now.  If we
can solve one of many problems (e.g. find a cheap way of storing energy,
have a venture like Joule Technology work in synthetic biofuels, have a way
to "poison" breeder reactor fuel output so it can't be used for bombs,
develop mesoscopic physics to the point where solar cells are practical) in
the next 250 years, we won't need to worry. =



>How were the European Greens responsible for keeping Uganda poor, by
turning them away from nuclear?  =


Two ways:

1) They have extremely strict and unreasonable standards for imported food.
For example, its virtually impossible for US food products to be sold there.


2) They convinced Uganda that using fertilizer and insecticides was bad.
That's why the crop yield is so low.  Little grows and the insects get most
of it.  The US, on the other hand, uses insecticides in cycles so it's hard
for the insects to develop immunity to several insecticides...what is
superior for one is inferior for the other.  And, farmland is now adding
topsoil with fertilizer and advanced techniques, and genetically modified
crops.  If we could get corn to fix nitrogen better, we'd be home free.

Dan M.