Power and civilization

> The measure of a civilization could be said to be =

> its consumption of energy and how it uses resources.=A0
> Conspicuous v. sustainable...=A0
> Jon
 =

> > From: [email protected]
> Twas in Last And First Men, by Olaf Stapledon, =

> I think, where all future=A0 =

> civilizations had their power based upon alcohol. =

> Nothing stored from the=A0past=A0was left.

I never could get through Stapleton.  =

What was destroyed; all other sources of power?  =

How could that be?


> > From: John Garcia <[email protected]>
> I'm reading John Varley's Slow Apocalypse. The =

> premise is that all
> un-processed petroleum is destroyed by an act of
> bio-terrorism. In the
> middle of it right now, but so far it's scaring the =

> spit out of me.
> john

Years ago George R.R. Martin wrote a pilot called "Doors".  If I remember c=
orrectly it was about an alternative Earth where a virus was created to abs=
orb oil spills and it ended up eating up all traces of petrochemicals every=
where on Earth and civilization went back to the horse and buggy days. (not=
 necessarily a bad thing!~)
Jon Mann

> >The measure of a civilization could be said to be =

> Its consumption of energy and how it uses resources.=A0 =

> Conspicuous v. sustainable...=A0 =

> Jon Mann

> At what point was civilization sustainable without depending
> on unknowable
> innovations in the future?=A0 It would have to be before
> steel, because
> blacksmithing almost deforested England before coal was
> found and used (back
> around 1000 I think).=A0 Going to Africa, and seeing the
> sustainable organic
> farming they used to get 5 bushels/acre out of depleted soil
> reminded me of
> what my Zambian daughter Neli argued, to no avail, to the
> government of
> Uganda.=A0 That using natural methods would just have
> it's people starve, like
> they have for centuries.=A0 Unfortunately, the European
> Greens were more
> powerful in their persuasion....and Uganda will remain poor
> until they stop
> listening to them.=A0 It's hard because the EU policy is
> dedicated to
> protecting inefficient EU (mostly French) farmers.
> Dan M.

You have a Zambian daughter, Dan? =


I have no clue at what point civilization was sustainable after the leap fr=
om hunter gatherer to agriculture to industrial society.  I suppose it won'=
t happen unless humanity matures beyond greedy, pleasure seeking immediate =
gratification, self centered behavior, and that probably won't happen unles=
s there is a singularity event.

How were the European Greens responsible for keeping Uganda poor, by turnin=
g them away from nuclear?  I was following the conversation but I still thi=
nk there are problems, especially with some of the older nuclear plants.  I=
 recall reading about unethical cost cutting shortcuts and Japanese governm=
ent coverups, etc.  Is it true that only one person died as a result of the=
 earthquake and tsunami off Sendai, or is that just so far?  What about lon=
g term effects of the meltdown?  I had a friend who survived Hiroshima only=
 to die many years later.   =

Jon =