Re: Great thinkers and weaponry

Thanks.  Yes, *hubris* requires inspection as much as *to kalon*.

Dan

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 8:47 PM Jennifer Margrison <[email protected]>
wrote:

> The passage from the Politics provides a minor example of how a dated
> translation can mislead:  "suffer insult"   does not seem to be a good
> translation of =E1=BD=91=CE=B2=CF=81=CE=AF=CE=B6=CE=B5=CF=83=CE=B8=CE=B1=
=CE=B9 in this day and age.
>
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:32, DANIEL P. Tompkins <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Brilliant, must add to my list
> >
> > Thx,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 1:30 PM Szegedy-Maszak, Andrew <
> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Great quotation. I'm put in mind of Thales, who speculated about the
> > basic
> > > substance of the cosmos, and is also said to have predicted an eclips=
e,
> > and
> > > to have engineered the diversion of the River Halys so that the army =
of
> > > Croesus could cross it. Which didn't turn out so well for Croesus, of
> > > course.
> > >
> > >
> > > Andrew Szegedy-Maszak
> > > Professor of Classical Studies
> > > Jane A. Seney Professor of Greek
> > > Wesleyan University
> > > Middletown, CT  06459
> > > ph: 860.685.2065
> > > fax: 860.685.2089
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <
> [email protected]
> > >
> > > on behalf of DANIEL P. Tompkins <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 1:12 PM
> > > To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > > Subject: [CLASSICS-L] Great thinkers and weaponry
> > >
> > > We're trained to a degree to think of earlier thinkers as specialists
> in
> > > the useless and ethereal -- "values," "morality," "beauty": "The Good=
,"
> > as
> > > one line of scholars has it.
> > >
> > > So it's worthwhile to note that these dudes also, often, understood
> > > weaponry.  Leonardo da Vinci's famous job application letter
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.b=
usinessinsider.com%2Fleonardo-da-vinci-cover-letter-from-1400s-2014-6&amp;d=
ata=3D02%7C01%7CCLASSICS-L%40lsv.uky.edu%7C0300b048dc1b420530ef08d77213051b=
%7C2b30530b69b64457b818481cb53d42ae%7C0%7C0%7C637103298326944281&amp;sdata=
=3DNZap0jxcSB2df5yBeEDJae2nyjecCCIfnmAtLTsNJZw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> > > '>
> > > to Ludovico Sforza in Milan omitted *La Gioconda* and hit on the item=
s
> of
> > > more value to Ludovico:
> > >
> > >  I have also types of cannon, most convenient and easily portable, wi=
th
> > > which to hurl small stones almost like a hail-storm; and the smoke fr=
om
> > the
> > > cannon will instil a great fear in the enemy on account of the grave
> > damage
> > > and confusion.
> > > Also, I have means of arriving at a designated spot through mines and
> > > secret winding passages constructed completely without noise, even if
> it
> > > should be necessary to pass underneath moats or any river.
> > > Also, I will make covered vehicles, safe and unassailable, which will
> > > penetrate the enemy and their artillery, and there is no host of arme=
d
> > men
> > > so great that they would not break through it. And behind these the
> > > infantry will be able to follow, quite uninjured and unimpeded.... et=
c.
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > It does seem worthwhile to scope out an employer's interests in
> advance.
> > >
> > > That occurred to me when I notice this in Aristotle's *Politics
> > *(1330-31,
> > > abridged, from the Perseus
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pe=
rseus.tufts.edu%2Fhopper%2Ftext%3Fdoc%3DPerseus%253atext%253a1999.01.0057&a=
mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CCLASSICS-L%40lsv.uky.edu%7C0300b048dc1b420530ef08d77213=
051b%7C2b30530b69b64457b818481cb53d42ae%7C0%7C0%7C637103298326944281&amp;sd=
ata=3DCJa%2BcEqLqqdywOTvaIbf191frciJNaQmHeKopPp0t%2Fw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> > > >
> > > site):
> > >
> > > Against an evenly matched foe it is not honorable [really, "not Good,=
"
> as
> > > above: =CE=BF=CF=85 =CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BB=CF=8C=CE=BD] to try to secure =
oneself by the strength of one's
> > > fortifications; but as it does and may happen that the superior numbe=
rs
> > of
> > > the attackers may be too much for the human valor of a small force, i=
f
> > the
> > > city is to survive and not to suffer disaster or insult [=CF=80=CE=AC=
=CF=83=CF=87=CE=B5=CE=B9=CE=BD =CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BA=E1=BF=B6=CF=82
> > =CE=BC=CE=B7=CE=B4=E1=BD=B2
> > > =E1=BD=91=CE=B2=CF=81=CE=AF=CE=B6=CE=B5=CF=83=CE=B8=CE=B1=CE=B9], the=
 securest fortification of walls must be deemed to be
> the
> > > most warlike,  particularly in view of the* inventions that have now
> > been *
> > > *made in the direction of precision with missiles and artillery for
> > > sieges*.
> > >
> > >
> > > In both cases, the "thinkers" have thought about how to win and /or
> > > survive.  There must be others.  Values are one thing, staying alive =
is
> > > another.
> > >
> > > There is a tendency in classical scholarship (e.g. Thucydides) to
> > translate
> > > "good" as "honorable."  This leads, occasionally, to disasters.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> >
>