Re: Great thinkers and weaponry

The passage from the Politics provides a minor example of how a dated
translation can mislead:  "suffer insult"   does not seem to be a good
translation of =E1=BD=91=CE=B2=CF=81=CE=AF=CE=B6=CE=B5=CF=83=CE=B8=CE=B1=CE=
=B9 in this day and age.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:32, DANIEL P. Tompkins <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Brilliant, must add to my list
>
> Thx,
>
> Dan
>
> On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 1:30 PM Szegedy-Maszak, Andrew <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Great quotation. I'm put in mind of Thales, who speculated about the
> basic
> > substance of the cosmos, and is also said to have predicted an eclipse,
> and
> > to have engineered the diversion of the River Halys so that the army of
> > Croesus could cross it. Which didn't turn out so well for Croesus, of
> > course.
> >
> >
> > Andrew Szegedy-Maszak
> > Professor of Classical Studies
> > Jane A. Seney Professor of Greek
> > Wesleyan University
> > Middletown, CT  06459
> > ph: 860.685.2065
> > fax: 860.685.2089
> > ________________________________
> > From: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <[email protected]=
U
> >
> > on behalf of DANIEL P. Tompkins <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 1:12 PM
> > To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > Subject: [CLASSICS-L] Great thinkers and weaponry
> >
> > We're trained to a degree to think of earlier thinkers as specialists i=
n
> > the useless and ethereal -- "values," "morality," "beauty": "The Good,"
> as
> > one line of scholars has it.
> >
> > So it's worthwhile to note that these dudes also, often, understood
> > weaponry.  Leonardo da Vinci's famous job application letter
> > <
> >
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.b=
usinessinsider.com%2Fleonardo-da-vinci-cover-letter-from-1400s-2014-6&amp;d=
ata=3D02%7C01%7CCLASSICS-L%40lsv.uky.edu%7C6a5b71f5ef9347e167a108d772128560=
%7C2b30530b69b64457b818481cb53d42ae%7C0%7C0%7C637103296184779350&amp;sdata=
=3DXQ1WonWx%2FDG3iDmWsNialTkOaoxXn%2FCaQCEOy%2BAYX6U%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> > '>
> > to Ludovico Sforza in Milan omitted *La Gioconda* and hit on the items =
of
> > more value to Ludovico:
> >
> >  I have also types of cannon, most convenient and easily portable, with
> > which to hurl small stones almost like a hail-storm; and the smoke from
> the
> > cannon will instil a great fear in the enemy on account of the grave
> damage
> > and confusion.
> > Also, I have means of arriving at a designated spot through mines and
> > secret winding passages constructed completely without noise, even if i=
t
> > should be necessary to pass underneath moats or any river.
> > Also, I will make covered vehicles, safe and unassailable, which will
> > penetrate the enemy and their artillery, and there is no host of armed
> men
> > so great that they would not break through it. And behind these the
> > infantry will be able to follow, quite uninjured and unimpeded.... etc.
> > etc.
> >
> > It does seem worthwhile to scope out an employer's interests in advance=
.
> >
> > That occurred to me when I notice this in Aristotle's *Politics
> *(1330-31,
> > abridged, from the Perseus
> > <
> >
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pe=
rseus.tufts.edu%2Fhopper%2Ftext%3Fdoc%3DPerseus%253atext%253a1999.01.0057&a=
mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CCLASSICS-L%40lsv.uky.edu%7C6a5b71f5ef9347e167a108d77212=
8560%7C2b30530b69b64457b818481cb53d42ae%7C0%7C0%7C637103296184779350&amp;sd=
ata=3DrCioIWowAvjHM6bXpZpiFh21xgA%2FmYDI%2Bl%2Bp%2FM2u2HM%3D&amp;reserved=
=3D0
> > >
> > site):
> >
> > Against an evenly matched foe it is not honorable [really, "not Good," =
as
> > above: =CE=BF=CF=85 =CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BB=CF=8C=CE=BD] to try to secure on=
eself by the strength of one's
> > fortifications; but as it does and may happen that the superior numbers
> of
> > the attackers may be too much for the human valor of a small force, if
> the
> > city is to survive and not to suffer disaster or insult [=CF=80=CE=AC=
=CF=83=CF=87=CE=B5=CE=B9=CE=BD =CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BA=E1=BF=B6=CF=82
> =CE=BC=CE=B7=CE=B4=E1=BD=B2
> > =E1=BD=91=CE=B2=CF=81=CE=AF=CE=B6=CE=B5=CF=83=CE=B8=CE=B1=CE=B9], the s=
ecurest fortification of walls must be deemed to be the
> > most warlike,  particularly in view of the* inventions that have now
> been *
> > *made in the direction of precision with missiles and artillery for
> > sieges*.
> >
> >
> > In both cases, the "thinkers" have thought about how to win and /or
> > survive.  There must be others.  Values are one thing, staying alive is
> > another.
> >
> > There is a tendency in classical scholarship (e.g. Thucydides) to
> translate
> > "good" as "honorable."  This leads, occasionally, to disasters.
> >
> > Dan
> >
>