Re: After Genoa - tangibles on eco-modelling

Dear Jakob,
I don't want to touch on a raw nerve here, and I don't want to enter=20=20
into a discussion about who is right and wrong about anything. As=20=20
project co-director,  my concern is (and was at the meeting) only that=20=20
a coherent and helpful account would be presented to the reviewers, to=20=20
a) add to the overall knowledge of the project and b ) ensure a smooth=20=20
final part of the project and its funding. So, IN ORDER TO ASSIST IN=20=20
YOUR PRESENTATION OF YOUR FINAL REPORT, could i just say two things.

1. You say:
> Unfortunately, from my point of view the dominant part of the project =
=20
> has adopted a very limited view of the core ideas of weblabs i.e.=20=20
> transparent modules, working models, collaboration, and knowledge=20=20
> building for knowledge domain in math and science for 10-14 year-olds.
Well, i'm sorry you find it unfortunate, but this is what the project=20=20
was always about: from the initial proposal, through to the early=20=20
project meetings. Tangibles were seen as a contribution to the above=20=20
list: not an isolated aspect unconnected with the knowledge domains,=20=20
the programming aspect etc.

2. You say:
> As a researcher it is not my job to tell the teachers what they should =
=20
> be teaching their children, it is merely to provide them with a new=20=20
> set of tools that they might find useful in their practice.

As someone who was a teacher for 8 years, I cannot accept that the=20=20
option is "telling teachers how to teach" versus "letting teachers do=20=20
what they want to do". There is another option used by design=20=20
researchers throughout the world: to work ALONGSIDE teachers to achieve =
=20
the aims of our project?

Don't you think?
--Richard

On 12 May 2005, at 2:49 pm, Jakob Tholander wrote:

>  Hi everyone,
>
>  I have to say that even though I wasn't present at Ylva's=20=20
> presentation I understand from her reaction and from what I gather=20=20
> from the reaction of the rest of the project that our work on=20=20
> tangibles did not get much positive feedback.
>
>  Unfortunately, from my point of view the dominant part of the project =
=20
> has adopted a very limited view of the core ideas of weblabs i.e.=20=20
> transparent modules, working models, collaboration, and knowledge=20=20
> building for knowledge domain in math and science for 10-14 year-olds. =
=20
> We all have interpreted these ideas in different ways and adapted them =
=20
> to our different conditions, while some has focused more on knowledge =
=20
> building through group discussions other have focused on the idea of=20=20
> transparent models. I believe that it should be considered a strength =
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> of the project that we are working with different perspectives of how =
=20
> these ideas might support the different knowledge domains for the=20=20
> age-span of our target group (don't forget 11 year-olds are very=20=20
> different from 14 year-olds). However, as the project has developed it =
=20
> has basically all been about small and quite advanced areas in=20=20
> mathematics and how one can make those accessible for kids. In Sweden =
=20
> on the other hand we have chosen to work with a knowledge domain that =
=20
> have less such properties. We have spent considerable efforts in=20=20
> grounding our domain in the Swedish curriculum and the schools we are =
=20
> collaborating with. To deny the value of how that domain is formulated =
=20
> by referring to a scientific journal about complex systems I have to=20=20
> say seems incredibly naive. Also, we would be terribly ignorant if we =
=20
> when discussing appropriate knowledge domains with the teachers of our =
=20
> school if we simply dismissed their interests and ways of working. As =
=20
> a researcher it is not my job to tell the teachers what they should be =
=20
> teaching their children, it is merely to provide them with a new set=20=20
> of tools that they might find useful in their practice.
>
>  An other important thing which seem not to have been discussed is=20=20
> that the work with tangibles that we have been doing aimed at=20=20
> addressing the issues in the contract that were about exploring new
>  tangible technologies for building working models of one's knowledge. =
=20
> This has involved exploring and investigate technologies for tangible =
=20
> systems that we did not have access to at the start of the project.=20=20
> The application that we have built is therefore still a prototype and =
=20
> not finished in any way. It is of course easy to criticize it in many =
=20
> ways. What our application attempts to demonstrate is how tangible=20=20
> technologies can be designed for children to collaborately build=20=20
> working models of dynamic systems. Therefore we have also chosen to=20=20
> implement a subset of the ecomodelling behaviours that we have been=20=20
> implementing in ToonTalk. We are very much aware that the prototype=20=20
> needs further work when it comes to the kinds of models that children =
=20
> can build with it, but the goal was never that this application would =
=20
> be ready for full-scale testing within the project. In our activities =
=20
> with children we believe that we actually have come quite far in also =
=20
> evaluating the use of the system for learning about ecosystems.
>
>  /jakob
>
>
>  At 09:33 2005-05-12, Ken Kahn wrote:
>> Hi all.
>> =A0
>> I think Ylva and Jakob's work on tangibles has led to an innovative=20=20
>> and interesting input device. Furthermore they showed how the device =
=20
>> can change the way children build models, especially how they=20=20
>> collaborate. I think this is good work and I'll leave it to others to =
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>> make this work fit into the project final report.
>> =A0
>> Where I disagree with Joao Filipe is about the word "eco" and to=20=20
>> lesser extent "complex systems". A very quick Google search and I=20=20
>> found "Complex Systems is a journal devoted to the science,=20=20
>> mathematics, and engineering of systems with simple components but=20=20
>> complex overall behavior." My problem with making a connection to=20=20
>> complex systems is I don't see what we or the kids have to say about =
=20
>> "the complex overall behaviour". If we want to say they were doing=20=20
>> complex systems then they should be trying to understand the overall =
=20
>> behaviour -- I don't recall hearing that the kids were trying to do=20=20
>> this.
>> =A0
>> I have a few problems using "eco" to describe what the kids were=20=20
>> doing. First, this year the kids have drifted even further from=20=20
>> modelling ecologies -- I admit that vampires and skeletons could be=20=20
>> part of an imaginary ecology but I think the kids were not=20=20
>> approaching things that way. Previous years were more focussed on=20=20
>> ecologies. Yes, one small part of understanding ecologies is that=20=20
>> some creatures eat other creatures. But it seems hard to make a case =
=20
>> that kids need to build computer models to understand that more=20=20
>> deeply. Ecological questions are about balance, disturbances,=20=20
>> sustainability, etc. At the minimum there needs to be reproduction=20=20
>> since without it everyone starves. Ideally there should sources and=20=20
>> sinks for energy and other resources. Compare the WebLabs=20=20
>> eco-literacy efforts with those in StageCast Creator --=20=20
>> http://www.stagecast.com/cgi-bin/templator.cgi?PAGE=3DSchool/worlds/=20
>> simhost/POPULATIONGROWTH/ -- I bet the StageCast version is at least =
=20
>> as transparent as the eco-modelling TM and is so much richer.
>> =A0
>> Best,
>> =A0
>> -ken
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Joao Filipe Matos
>> To: [email protected]
>> Cc: [email protected] ; Joao Filipe Matos
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 4:29 PM
>> Subject: [weblabs-general] After Genoa - tangibles on eco-modelling
>>
>> Dear Weblabs'
>>
>> =A0
>> First of all thanks to our Italian colleagues for the hospitality=20=20
>> during the meeting.
>> When returning to Lisbon (two flights connection and 9 hours=20=20
>> travelling) I guess I realized how impressed I was of the reaction of =
=20
>> several people in the meeting after the short presentation of Ylva on =
=20
>> Eco-modelling tangibles, and how unconfortable I felt for not having =
=20
>> reacted (as I think I should). Certainly that we need to make a=20=20
>> (collective) effort to provide evidence of the relevance of what we=20=20
>> are all doing in the project and to convince our audience(s) that our =
=20
>> claims are educationaly soundfull. As this is a research project, and =
=20
>> as open-minded researchers, I think that our positioning as=20=20
>> researchers must go in the line of interrogate what evidence are we=20=20
>> providing for the claims we are doing and discuss this openly (and=20=20
>> this criteria must certainly be equally applied to all knowledge=20=20
>> domains) and we must support all efforts to explore new ways of=20=20
>> representing knowledge and develop powerful ideas and learning (at=20=20
>> the end, this is what WebLabs is about).
>> As far as I could interprete, Ylva presented a first exploration of a =
=20
>> kind of tangibles that allow children to both embody and be in the=20=20
>> millieu of a phenomenon which clearly is in the domain of complex=20=20
>> systems and ecology. Being the basis to children activities a=20=20
>> "computational world", this goes in parallel with the work of Abelson =
=20
>> and DiSessa when they were exploring virtual worlds with Logo back in =
=20
>> the 1980's (although in different time and distance of the technology =
=20
>> resources available by that time) . The added value of the line Ylva =
=20
>> is following now, is that it brings together new ways of looking at=20=20
>> learning and cognition (see for example the way Francisco Varela=20=20
>> discusses this in his book Principles of Biological Autonomy bringing =
=20
>> in the concept of "autopoiesis"; the way Humberto Maturana and=20=20
>> Francisco Varela go in Ch. 5 the natural drift of living beings in=20=20
>> The Tree of Knowledge; the forms the discussion of Terry Winograd and =
=20
>> Fernando Flores as! sume in Ch.3 and 4 into cognition as biological=20=20
>> phenomena on Understanding Computers and Cognition-new frontiers for =
=20
>> design; the way Boohan suggest creating worlds from objects and=20=20
>> events in Ogborn et al. Learning with Articial Worlds-Computer bases =
=20
>> Modelling; etc).
>> Flying from Genoa to Paris I got from the French newspaper Liberation =
=20
>> of 10 May an article on how scientists are trying to fight=20=20
>> Homalodisca Coagulata (a small fly that is terrible for several kinds =
=20
>> of fruit) with another fly, La microguepe. This is a rather important =
=20
>> problem in the field of ecology as the scientists are not sure if=20=20
>> there is some further implication of the action they are taking to=20=20
>> combat the bad fly although the probablity is low acoording to the=20=20
>> report (see how natural is puting together randomness and=20=20
>> eco-modelling). A decision was taken to make a controled experiment=20=20
>> in Polinesia and then to decide if the problem can be addressed in=20=20
>> the same way in the US. It is a simple real and important problem=20=20
>> that children can model when being exposed to the story of what is=20=20
>> happening in those countries, and in doing so, deal with relevant=20=20
>> issues in ecoliteracy, science and mathematics. But this has to make =
=20
>> sense in the particular context of the Swedish school (! or any other =
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>> country) in order to be fully appreciated by teachers and children.
>> Certainly one needs to ask relevant and powerful research questions=20=20
>> when looking at the experiments Ylva is doing with the tangibles. Let =
=20
>> me offer a few suggestions:
>> - how do children decide what behaviours to assign to each character =
=20
>> and why?=A0 what is their alignment (i.e. what do they aim for, what is =
=20
>> the expected outcome of the model built)?
>> - what steps can we identify in children's discussion and dialogue=20=20
>> (e.g. reflecting + identifying variables and behaviours -- assigning =
=20
>> behaviours -- defining quantities of characters -- putting the model =
=20
>> in action -- observing the global behaviour of the population of=20=20
>> characters -- telling stories (i.e. constructing narratives to make=20=20
>> sense of the phenomena) -- refining the model (i.e. changing the=20=20
>> behaviours -- etc).
>> - how do children relate the local to the global (i.e. the local=20=20
>> definition of each character to the global population)? how is=20=20
>> locality addressed by children? how do they formulate (in their=20=20
>> repertoire) those relationships? how do they deal with this dimention =
=20
>> of complexity?
>> - how do children "project" themselves in the field of the characters =
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>> they build? what is specific of their location in that field (of=20=20
>> characters) -- as "part of the system" in the sense of Varela or=20=20
>> within the system -- that becomes visible in the way they collaborate =
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>> in the production of the global system?
>> - what is the nature of the ressonance of this activity of children=20=20
>> in the way they address problems such as the example I got from=20=20
>> Liberation?
>> - in the methodological dimension, would it be helpful to make a=20=20
>> collective interview of the group following guidelines that allow the =
=20
>> researcher to have detailed evidence of the ways they appropriate=20=20
>> powerful ideas in eco-modelling?
>>
>> =A0
>> I hope this is helpful. It is the way I found to support Ylva here.
>> All the best,
>> Joao Filipe
>>
>> =A0
>> http://www.educ.fc.ul.pt/docentes/jfmatos
>>
>> =A0
>>
>>
>> =A0
>>
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>
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