Re: RE2: Mud and Bog

Brilliant summary. Well done, that is clear.



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of David Elder
Sent: 08 May 2012 14:27
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Aslml] RE2: Mud and Bog

Hi All,

I've cited the relevant rules first ...

D8.23 MUD & DEEP SNOW: When scenario Weather (E3) are "Mud" or "Deep Snow",
a vehicle [EXC: motorcycle; 15.47] must chance a Bog DR whenever it enters a
hex or hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexside. The
opponent makes one Secret (D.5) Bog Check DR for the vehicle's entire MPh
(unless it enters - or, in the case of a stream, exits - a regular Bog hex
in which case a Bog DR is also made for that hex; see also E3.752), plus a
Secret dr. If the Secret Bog Check DR is sufficient to cause a Bog, note is
taken of the Secret dr. The Bog takes place in a hex along the vehicle's
path equal to the dr; e.g., if the dr was a 2, the opponent must declare the
vehicle bogged in the second hex (/Bypassed hexside) moved into during that
MPh which can cause such a Bog result. MP expenditure is not a factor. If
the vehicle does not move into that many hexes (/Bypassed hexsides) subject
to Bog, no Bog result occurs.

E3.61 BOG/MANHANDLING: The chances of vehicular Bog (D8.23) and difficulties
with Manhandling Guns (C10.3) are increased during Mud.

E3.64 MOVEMENT: In Mud, all ground units must expend an extra 1/2 MF (or one
full MP) per Open Ground (see 3.65) hexside [EXC: if entering non-Open
Ground terrain in that hex], as per 3.9. Double Time and Leader MF bonus are
still applicable.

E3.65 OPEN GROUND: For purposes of Mud and Deep Snow (3.62, 3.64, 3.731)
only, Open Ground includes all unpaved (during mud) or unplowed (during Deep
Snow) roads, gullies [EXC: gullies containing woods/brush during Mud, or
containing woods during Deep Snow; B12.6], dry streams, plowed fields (not
grain), and otherwise Open Ground hexes including shellholes and trenches
regardless of LOS Hindrances, hexside TEM, entrenchments or height.


Here is how I read it ... opinions may vary :)

1) Mud imposes additional MF/MP costs when entering open ground hexes
(E3.64)
2) Open ground has been redefined to include unpaved roads and other hexes
(E3.65)
3) Mud increases the chance of vehicular bog (E3.61 referencing D8.23)
4) D8.23 says - "a vehicle [EXC: motorcycle; 15.47] must chance a Bog DR
whenever it enters a hex or hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed
road/runway hexside". This does NOT say "Open ground hex" or anything other
than entering a new hex without benefit of a "paved/plowed road/runway
hexside"

I can't find any reference that indicates that increased bog chances apply
only in open ground during mud. There is nothing I can find that says only
open ground hexes are considered muddy. The Weather is stated to be "mud".
Although MF/MP are only increased in open ground ... D8.23 indicates that
bog is possible whenever the vehicle is not on a road.

So based on the above ... the procedure would be the following ...
A) Opponent makes a secret bog DR for the half track. (If this roll would
not cause a bog then the secret dr in B does not need to be noted).
B) Opponent makes a secret bog dr to determine how many hexes can be entered
without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexside
C) If the vehicle enters a number of bog susceptible hexes equal to the dr
it becomes bogged in that hex (presumably the opponent reveals the DR,dr at
this point).

 From George's original email:

> Halftrack leaves gE4 road to enter oF4 orchard over a non-road hexside.
>
> D8.23 reads, "…a vehicle … must chance a BOG DR whenever it enters a 
> hex or hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexside…"
>
> The way I read this and E3.6, the orchard will negate the additional 
> 1/2MP expenditure for Mud in open ground, but it will not prevent the 
> halftrack from having to make the Bog check as it entered a new hex from
off-road.

In this case the BOG DR and dr should have been made by the opponent BEFORE
the halftrack starts it's MPh. If the secret dr was 1 (assuming this was the
first hex entered off the road AND the secret bog DR was a bog result then
the half track would bog in the orchard hex). Any vehicle moving during a
scenario in "Mud" needs to have secret bog DR,dr made prior to the start of
movement.

Opinions? I may have missed a relevant rules citation but D8.23 seems pretty
clear in stating that bog is possible whenever a vehicle enters a
hex/hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexside.

Cheers,

David








On 5/8/2012 2:34 AM, Klas Malmström wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm not really sure what the question is anymore, but I thought the 
> original question was whether the Bog of D8.23 only applied in Open Ground
(per E3.65) hexes.
>
> Regards,
> Klas
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Klas Malmstrom
> Linkoping, Sweden
> Email: [email protected]
> [email protected]
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> ----- Ursprungligt meddelande ----
>> Från: David Olie<daveolie-KiPCJBMgASssA/[email protected]>
>> Till: geb3<[email protected]>; 'Klas 
>> Malmstrom'<[email protected]>; 'ASL Discussion 
>> List'<[email protected]>
>> Kopia:
>> Skickat: tisdag, 8 maj 2012 4:36
>> Ämne: Re: [Aslml] RE2: Mud and Bog
>>
>> Hey, Wynn.
>>
>> Thanks for your input. This is my understanding as well. A vehicle 
>> (or Infantry, for that matter) can enter a hex using normal movement, 
>> or enter a hexside using bypass movement. D8.23 is trying to cover 
>> both means of entering a hex/hexside, IOW, trying to make sure no-one 
>> can rules-lawyer their way out of "entering a hex" by stating "I'm 
>> not entering the hex, only the hexside".
>>
>> The important part is the word "entering". In this case I'm entering 
>> Orchard. The only case in the rules that I see where a vehicle may 
>> incur a Bog penalty based on the terrain being EXITED is Stream (B20.46).
>>
>> David "my vehicle might not be Bogged, but the game is" Olie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wynn Polnicky
>> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 10:26 PM
>> To: geb3 ; 'Klas Malmstrom' ; 'ASL Discussion List'
>> Subject: Re: [Aslml] RE2: Mud and Bog
>>
>> David;
>>
>> Jumping in here because it just struck me how odd it is that one can 
>> ever even 'enter' a hexside. Clearly the authors of D8.23 were not 
>> students of mathematics wherein a line (such as I think any 
>> reasonable person would consider is what a hexside is) is a 
>> one-dimensional concept which has no width and therefore is incapable 
>> of ever being entered. Hence I would agree with your earlier argument 
>> that D8.23 is attempting (albeit clumsily) to refer to bypass 
>> movement rather than the crossing of a hexside. After all, the space 
>> *between* a building or woods obstacle and a hexside does have a 
>> measurable width, unlike a hexside.
>>
>> Wynn
>> B. Math (Waterloo)
>> Thinking in the abstract since 1976
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Olie
>> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 4:19 PM
>> To: geb3 ; 'Klas Malmstrom' ; 'ASL Discussion List'
>> Subject: Re: [Aslml] RE2: Mud and Bog
>>
>> In fact, it is entering oF3, which is an Orchard hex, therefore not 
>> OG. Yes, it has to traverse the OG portion of the E4 paved road hex 
>> to enter oF3. My argument is that this is irrelevant, as it's not 
>> "entering" a hexside, but simply crossing one.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: geb3
>> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 11:20 PM
>> To: 'Klas Malmstrom' ; 'ASL Discussion List' ; 'David Olie'
>> Subject: RE2: Mud and Bog
>>
>> Taking a moment from a weekend of domestic bliss to try to make 
>> things
>> clear:
>>
>> I think the halftrack fulfills the D8.23 requirement for a bog check 
>> as it enters F4 (a hex) without benefit of the road.  Is more needed than
that?
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> - G
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] 
>> [mailto:[email protected]]
>> On Behalf Of Klas Malmstrom
>> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 2:12 PM
>> To: David Olie; ASL Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [Aslml] Mud and Bog
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Well, perhaps I didn't understand the initial question.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Klas
>>
>> ?
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Klas Malmstrom
>> Linkoping, Sweden
>> Email: [email protected]
>> [email protected]
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>   Fran: David Olie<daveolie-KiPCJBMgASssA/[email protected]>
>>> Till: Klas Malmstrom<[email protected]>; ASL Discussion List 
>>> <[email protected]>
>>> Skickat: fredag, 4 maj 2012 4:57
>>> Amne: Re: [Aslml] Mud and Bog
>>>
>>>
>>> I beg to differ, Klas.
>>> ?
>>> My ht entered gE4 without chance to Bog via the Paved Road (by SSR). 
>>> It
>> then enters goF3 (Orchard).
>>> ?
>>> By D8.23 a vehicle must chance a Bog DR whenever it enters a hex or
>> hexside without benefit of a paved or plowed or runway hexside.
>>> ?
>>> In this case I`m not entering a hexside, I`m crossing it,
>> which could be either OG or Orchard, depending how you look at it. As 
>> I understand it, entering a hexside refers to bypass movement. (D2.3)
>>> ?
>>> For most purposes in ASL, units do not pay MP or MF penalties for 
>>> the
>> terrain that they exit from (the only exception I know of is a 
>> vehicle exiting a Stream, B20.46).
>>> ?
>>> David ``Muddy Waters`` Olie
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Klas Malmstrom
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:25 AM
>>> To: ASL Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [Aslml] Mud and Bog
>>> ?
>>> Hi,
>>> ?
>>> I think you have it correct.
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> /Klas
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>> Klas Malmstrom
>>> Linkoping, Sweden
>>> Email: [email protected]
>>> [email protected]
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>   Fran: geb3<[email protected]>
>>>> Till: 'ASL Discussion List'<[email protected]>
>>>> Skickat: onsdag, 2 maj 2012 13:01
>>>> Amne: [Aslml] Mud and Bog
>>>>
>>>> Hey, fellas.? In the opening turn of J123, "Charging
>> Chaumont,"
>> I'm unsure
>>>> if a Bog DR is called for in this situation:
>>>>
>>>> Halftrack leaves gE4 road to enter oF4 orchard over a non-road
>> hexside.
>>>> D8.23 reads, "ca vehicle c must chance a BOG DR whenever it enters
>> a
>> hex or
>>>> hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexsidec"
>>>>
>>>> The way I read this and E3.6, the orchard will negate the 
>>>> additional
>> 1/2MP
>>>> expenditure for Mud in open ground, but it will not prevent the
>> halftrack
>>>> from having to make the Bog check as it entered a new hex from
>> off-road.
>>>> Feel free to tell me Ifm all wet.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>>   - G
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-- 
David Elder                             University of Toronto
david-tJaOsOnekaxy6FVk5UMYRG+DJq1SqhBbsOSz5zK2v9k@public.gmane.org        Institute for Aerospace Studies
Tel: 416-667-7891 or 905-839-8180       Fusion Research Group
Fax: 416-667-7799

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