Re: RE2: Mud and Bog

Hi All,

I've cited the relevant rules first ...

D8.23 MUD & DEEP SNOW: When scenario Weather (E3) are "Mud" or "Deep 
Snow", a vehicle [EXC: motorcycle; 15.47] must chance a Bog DR whenever 
it enters a hex or hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway 
hexside. The opponent makes one Secret (D.5) Bog Check DR for the 
vehicle's entire MPh (unless it enters - or, in the case of a stream, 
exits - a regular Bog hex in which case a Bog DR is also made for that 
hex; see also E3.752), plus a Secret dr. If the Secret Bog Check DR is 
sufficient to cause a Bog, note is taken of the Secret dr. The Bog takes 
place in a hex along the vehicle's path equal to the dr; e.g., if the dr 
was a 2, the opponent must declare the vehicle bogged in the second hex 
(/Bypassed hexside) moved into during that MPh which can cause such a 
Bog result. MP expenditure is not a factor. If the vehicle does not move 
into that many hexes (/Bypassed hexsides) subject to Bog, no Bog result 
occurs.

E3.61 BOG/MANHANDLING: The chances of vehicular Bog (D8.23) and 
difficulties with Manhandling Guns (C10.3) are increased during Mud.

E3.64 MOVEMENT: In Mud, all ground units must expend an extra 1/2 MF (or 
one full MP) per Open Ground (see 3.65) hexside [EXC: if entering 
non-Open Ground terrain in that hex], as per 3.9. Double Time and Leader 
MF bonus are still applicable.

E3.65 OPEN GROUND: For purposes of Mud and Deep Snow (3.62, 3.64, 3.731) 
only, Open Ground includes all unpaved (during mud) or unplowed (during 
Deep Snow) roads, gullies [EXC: gullies containing woods/brush during 
Mud, or containing woods during Deep Snow; B12.6], dry streams, plowed 
fields (not grain), and otherwise Open Ground hexes including shellholes 
and trenches regardless of LOS Hindrances, hexside TEM, entrenchments or 
height.


Here is how I read it ... opinions may vary :)

1) Mud imposes additional MF/MP costs when entering open ground hexes 
(E3.64)
2) Open ground has been redefined to include unpaved roads and other 
hexes (E3.65)
3) Mud increases the chance of vehicular bog (E3.61 referencing D8.23)
4) D8.23 says - "a vehicle [EXC: motorcycle; 15.47] must chance a Bog DR 
whenever it enters a hex or hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed 
road/runway hexside". This does NOT say "Open ground hex" or anything 
other than entering a new hex without benefit of a "paved/plowed 
road/runway hexside"

I can't find any reference that indicates that increased bog chances 
apply only in open ground during mud. There is nothing I can find that 
says only open ground hexes are considered muddy. The Weather is stated 
to be "mud". Although MF/MP are only increased in open ground ... D8.23 
indicates that bog is possible whenever the vehicle is not on a road.

So based on the above ... the procedure would be the following ...
A) Opponent makes a secret bog DR for the half track. (If this roll 
would not cause a bog then the secret dr in B does not need to be noted).
B) Opponent makes a secret bog dr to determine how many hexes can be 
entered without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexside
C) If the vehicle enters a number of bog susceptible hexes equal to the 
dr it becomes bogged in that hex (presumably the opponent reveals the 
DR,dr at this point).

 From George's original email:

> Halftrack leaves gE4 road to enter oF4 orchard over a non-road hexside.
>
> D8.23 reads, "…a vehicle … must chance a BOG DR whenever it enters a hex or
> hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexside…"
>
> The way I read this and E3.6, the orchard will negate the additional 1/2MP
> expenditure for Mud in open ground, but it will not prevent the halftrack
> from having to make the Bog check as it entered a new hex from off-road.

In this case the BOG DR and dr should have been made by the opponent 
BEFORE the halftrack starts it's MPh. If the secret dr was 1 (assuming 
this was the first hex entered off the road AND the secret bog DR was a 
bog result then the half track would bog in the orchard hex). Any 
vehicle moving during a scenario in "Mud" needs to have secret bog DR,dr 
made prior to the start of movement.

Opinions? I may have missed a relevant rules citation but D8.23 seems 
pretty clear in stating that bog is possible whenever a vehicle enters a 
hex/hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexside.

Cheers,

David








On 5/8/2012 2:34 AM, Klas Malmström wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm not really sure what the question is anymore, but I thought the original question was whether the
> Bog of D8.23 only applied in Open Ground (per E3.65) hexes.
>
> Regards,
> Klas
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Klas Malmstrom
> Linkoping, Sweden
> Email: [email protected]
> [email protected]
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> ----- Ursprungligt meddelande ----
>> Från: David Olie<daveolie-KiPCJBMgASssA/[email protected]>
>> Till: geb3<[email protected]>; 'Klas Malmstrom'<[email protected]>; 'ASL Discussion List'<[email protected]>
>> Kopia:
>> Skickat: tisdag, 8 maj 2012 4:36
>> Ämne: Re: [Aslml] RE2: Mud and Bog
>>
>> Hey, Wynn.
>>
>> Thanks for your input. This is my understanding as well. A vehicle (or
>> Infantry, for that matter) can enter a hex using normal movement, or enter a
>> hexside using bypass movement. D8.23 is trying to cover both means of
>> entering a hex/hexside, IOW, trying to make sure no-one can rules-lawyer
>> their way out of "entering a hex" by stating "I'm not
>> entering the hex, only
>> the hexside".
>>
>> The important part is the word "entering". In this case I'm
>> entering
>> Orchard. The only case in the rules that I see where a vehicle may incur a
>> Bog penalty based on the terrain being EXITED is Stream (B20.46).
>>
>> David "my vehicle might not be Bogged, but the game is" Olie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wynn Polnicky
>> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 10:26 PM
>> To: geb3 ; 'Klas Malmstrom' ; 'ASL Discussion List'
>> Subject: Re: [Aslml] RE2: Mud and Bog
>>
>> David;
>>
>> Jumping in here because it just struck me how odd it is that one can ever
>> even 'enter' a hexside. Clearly the authors of D8.23 were not students
>> of
>> mathematics wherein a line (such as I think any reasonable person would
>> consider is what a hexside is) is a one-dimensional concept which has no
>> width and therefore is incapable of ever being entered. Hence I would agree
>> with your earlier argument that D8.23 is attempting (albeit clumsily) to
>> refer to bypass movement rather than the crossing of a hexside. After all,
>> the space *between* a building or woods obstacle and a hexside does have a
>> measurable width, unlike a hexside.
>>
>> Wynn
>> B. Math (Waterloo)
>> Thinking in the abstract since 1976
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Olie
>> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 4:19 PM
>> To: geb3 ; 'Klas Malmstrom' ; 'ASL Discussion List'
>> Subject: Re: [Aslml] RE2: Mud and Bog
>>
>> In fact, it is entering oF3, which is an Orchard hex, therefore not OG. Yes,
>> it has to traverse the OG portion of the E4 paved road hex to enter oF3. My
>> argument is that this is irrelevant, as it's not "entering" a
>> hexside, but
>> simply crossing one.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: geb3
>> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 11:20 PM
>> To: 'Klas Malmstrom' ; 'ASL Discussion List' ; 'David
>> Olie'
>> Subject: RE2: Mud and Bog
>>
>> Taking a moment from a weekend of domestic bliss to try to make things
>> clear:
>>
>> I think the halftrack fulfills the D8.23 requirement for a bog check as it
>> enters F4 (a hex) without benefit of the road.  Is more needed than that?
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> - G
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
>> On Behalf Of Klas Malmstrom
>> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 2:12 PM
>> To: David Olie; ASL Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [Aslml] Mud and Bog
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Well, perhaps I didn't understand the initial question.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Klas
>>
>> ?
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Klas Malmstrom
>> Linkoping, Sweden
>> Email: [email protected]
>> [email protected]
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>   Fran: David Olie<daveolie-KiPCJBMgASssA/[email protected]>
>>> Till: Klas Malmstrom<[email protected]>; ASL Discussion List
>>> <[email protected]>
>>> Skickat: fredag, 4 maj 2012 4:57
>>> Amne: Re: [Aslml] Mud and Bog
>>>
>>>
>>> I beg to differ, Klas.
>>> ?
>>> My ht entered gE4 without chance to Bog via the Paved Road (by SSR). It
>> then enters goF3 (Orchard).
>>> ?
>>> By D8.23 a vehicle must chance a Bog DR whenever it enters a hex or
>> hexside without benefit of a paved or plowed or runway hexside.
>>> ?
>>> In this case I`m not entering a hexside, I`m crossing it,
>> which could be either OG or Orchard, depending how you look at it. As I
>> understand it, entering a hexside refers to bypass movement. (D2.3)
>>> ?
>>> For most purposes in ASL, units do not pay MP or MF penalties for the
>> terrain that they exit from (the only exception I know of is a vehicle
>> exiting a Stream, B20.46).
>>> ?
>>> David ``Muddy Waters`` Olie
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Klas Malmstrom
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:25 AM
>>> To: ASL Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [Aslml] Mud and Bog
>>> ?
>>> Hi,
>>> ?
>>> I think you have it correct.
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> /Klas
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>> Klas Malmstrom
>>> Linkoping, Sweden
>>> Email: [email protected]
>>> [email protected]
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>   Fran: geb3<[email protected]>
>>>> Till: 'ASL Discussion List'<[email protected]>
>>>> Skickat: onsdag, 2 maj 2012 13:01
>>>> Amne: [Aslml] Mud and Bog
>>>>
>>>> Hey, fellas.? In the opening turn of J123, "Charging
>> Chaumont,"
>> I'm unsure
>>>> if a Bog DR is called for in this situation:
>>>>
>>>> Halftrack leaves gE4 road to enter oF4 orchard over a non-road
>> hexside.
>>>> D8.23 reads, "ca vehicle c must chance a BOG DR whenever it enters
>> a
>> hex or
>>>> hexside without benefit of a paved/plowed road/runway hexsidec"
>>>>
>>>> The way I read this and E3.6, the orchard will negate the additional
>> 1/2MP
>>>> expenditure for Mud in open ground, but it will not prevent the
>> halftrack
>>>> from having to make the Bog check as it entered a new hex from
>> off-road.
>>>> Feel free to tell me Ifm all wet.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>>   - G
> _______________________________________________
> Aslml mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net
> To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email [email protected]

-- 
David Elder                             University of Toronto
david-tJaOsOnekaxy6FVk5UMYRG+DJq1SqhBbsOSz5zK2v9k@public.gmane.org        Institute for Aerospace Studies
Tel: 416-667-7891 or 905-839-8180       Fusion Research Group
Fax: 416-667-7799

_______________________________________________
Aslml mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net
To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email [email protected]