Re: Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31
Gordon Rainsford <[email protected]> Fri, 14 Sep 2018 16:39:37 +0100
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.bridge.laws |
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| Message-ID | <CAE9m=HNtD3N4ihdaFjdBo=+6jVVdkUUeP9eCJWY+QhnWzVOg6A@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============1060184906== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000489c7f0575d6a2ba" --000000000000489c7f0575d6a2ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this is not clear from the original description. What action are you positing that North has taken prior to the TD being called? And in what way are you suggesting they may have gained from it? On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:22 PM Volker Walther <[email protected]> wrote: > For me the biggest problem is that North may have believed to be in a > 25A case. If 25B does not allow to accept the change of call, the > situation becomes hard to analyse: > > The withdrawn 3 Spade bid becomes UI to South and we have a lead penalty > against him. But for E/W we have to apply 11A; they are not allowed to > benefit, neither from the knowledge about the intended and withdrawn 3S, > nor from the lead penalty. > > > > > > > > Am 13.09.2018 um 16:56 schrieb Sven Pran: > > Because once North calls (for instance Pass) over the 3NT bid by West i= t > > becomes East that is in turn to call (unless the 3NT bid is accepted as > > an unintended call). > > > > > > > > In this case the 3NT bid by West clearly did not satisfy the conditions > > for an unintended call so the 3H bid by West at this time is a call at > > East=E2=80=99s turn to call, i.e. a call out of turn. > > > > > > > > Law 25A applies to unintended calls, but notice that the final result > > will be the same whether North (incorrectly) is given the opportunity t= o > > accept the 3H bid as a change of his 3NT bid or (correctly) use his > > right to accept the 3H bid out of turn. The main difference is what > > effect the irregularity may have on the (following) auction and/or play= . > > > > > > > > In either case North is allowed to eventually make his own desired 3S > bid. > > > > > > > > *Fra:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *P=C3=A5 vegne a= v* > > Gordon Rainsford > > *Sendt:* torsdag 13. september 2018 16.01 > > *Til:* [email protected] > > *Kopi:* BLML <[email protected]> > > *Emne:* Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 > > > > > > > > Why would you want to pretend something was a call out of turn when it > > isn't? The terms of the original question told us that it was an > > intended change of call. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:27 AM Sven Pran <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Why not apply Law 31B1? > > West's changed bid of 3H is actually a call out of rotation at > > East's turn > > to call, this changed call stands and North is now in turn to call. > > North is free to bid 3S and East may then make any legal call. > > Law 16C2 now applies. > > (North do not have the option to refuse West's change of call!) > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > > Fra: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> P=C3=A5 ve= gne av > > Volker > > Walther > > Sendt: onsdag 12. september 2018 17.53 > > Til: blml <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > Emne: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 > > > > When does the right (25B1) to accept an intended change of call > cease? > > > > The bidding > > > > W N E S > > 2NT P 3T(a) P (a) Puppet-Stayman > > 3NT* p(1) (*) Meant to show 5 hearts. > > > > Now West remembers that he has to bid 3H to show his hearts and > > replaces his > > bid. North wants to accept this change; he is wants to bid 3S. > > > > > > If 3NT had been unintended, we are in law 25A, 3S is an allowed bid= . > > p(1) is cancelled and becomes UI to E/W. > > Especially we have 25A1, telling us that a replacement is allowed a= s > > long > > partner did not bid, and we 25A6, telling us how to deal with > > p(1): it may be withdrawn. > > > > > > If 3H is meant to be an intended bid that should be given in the > next > > round, we are in 31 (and 27). Again N is allowed to bid 3S, but > > this time > > p(1) is not cancelled and it is AI to E/W. > > > > But now we are somewhere between 25B1, 25B2 and 31. > > 31.C tells us, that a bid OOR shall be treated as a change of call, > > according to law 25 as long as LHO did not call. > > > > 25B1. is telling us, that a substition may be accepted; > unfortunately it > > does not tell when this right is ceasing. > > Did North forfeit his right to accept a change of call, when he > called > > p(1) over 3NT, throwing us do 25B2, or is acceptance according to > > 25B1 still > > possible? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Volker Walther > > _______________________________________________ > > Blml mailing list > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > https://www.avg.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Blml mailing list > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > > > < > http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&u= tm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient > > > > Virus-free. www.avg.com > > < > http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&u= tm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient > > > > > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Blml mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > > -- > Volker Walther > _______________________________________________ > Blml mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > --000000000000489c7f0575d6a2ba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">I think this is not clear from the original description. W= hat action are you positing that North has taken prior to the TD being call= ed? And in what way are you suggesting they may have gained from it?</div><= br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:22= PM Volker Walther <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">bridge@vwalthe= r.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar= gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">For me the bigg= est problem is that North may have believed to be in a<br> 25A case. If 25B does not allow to accept the change of call, the<br> situation becomes hard to analyse:<br> <br> The withdrawn 3 Spade bid becomes UI to South and we have a lead penalty<br= > against him. But for E/W we have to apply 11A; they are not allowed to<br> benefit, neither from the knowledge about the intended and withdrawn 3S,<br= > nor from the lead penalty.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Am 13.09.2018 um 16:56 schrieb Sven Pran:<br> > Because once North calls (for instance Pass) over the 3NT bid by West = it<br> > becomes East that is in turn to call (unless the 3NT bid is accepted a= s<br> > an unintended call).<br> > <br> > =C2=A0<br> > <br> > In this case the 3NT bid by West clearly did not satisfy the condition= s<br> > for an unintended call so the 3H bid by West at this time is a=C2=A0 c= all at<br> > East=E2=80=99s turn to call, i.e. a call out of turn.<br> > <br> > =C2=A0<br> > <br> > Law 25A applies to unintended=C2=A0 calls, but notice that the final r= esult<br> > will be the same whether North (incorrectly) is given the opportunity = to<br> > accept the 3H bid as a change of his 3NT bid or (correctly) use his<br= > > right to accept the 3H bid out of turn. The main difference is what<br= > > effect the irregularity may have on the (following) auction and/or pla= y.<br> > <br> > =C2=A0<br> > <br> > In either case North is allowed to eventually make his own desired 3S= =C2=A0 bid.<br> > <br> > =C2=A0<br> > <br> > *Fra:* <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">blm= [email protected]</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targe= t=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> *P=C3=A5 vegne av*<br> > Gordon Rainsford<br> > *Sendt:* torsdag 13. september 2018 16.01<br> > *Til:* <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">sven@sve= npran.net</a><br> > *Kopi:* BLML <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">B= [email protected]</a>><br> > *Emne:* Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31<br> > <br> > =C2=A0<br> > <br> > Why would you want to pretend something was a call out of turn when it= <br> > isn't? The terms of the original question told us that it was an<b= r> > intended change of call.<br> > <br> > =C2=A0<br> > <br> > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:27 AM Sven Pran <<a href=3D"mailto:sven@s= venpran.net" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> > <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">sven= @svenpran.net</a>>> wrote:<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Why not apply Law 31B1?<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0West's changed bid of 3H is actually a call out= of rotation at<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0East's turn<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to call, this changed call stands and North is now = in turn to call.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0North is free to bid 3S and East may then make any = legal call.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Law 16C2 now applies.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(North do not have the option to refuse West's = change of call!)<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Opprinnelig melding-----<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fra: <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targ= et=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:blml-= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targe= t=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:blml-b= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>>> P=C3= =A5 vegne av<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Volker<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Walther<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sendt: onsdag 12. september 2018 17.53<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Til: blml <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" tar= get=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>>><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Emne: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0When does the right (25B1) to accept an intended ch= ange of call cease?<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The bidding<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0W=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 N=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0S<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02NT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 P=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03T(a)=C2=A0 = =C2=A0P=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (a) Puppet-Stayman<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03NT*=C2=A0 p(1)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (*) Meant to show 5 hearts.<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Now West remembers that he has to bid 3H to show hi= s hearts and<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0replaces his<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bid. North wants to accept this change; he is wants= to bid 3S.<br> > <br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If 3NT had been unintended, we are in law 25A, 3S i= s an allowed bid.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p(1) is cancelled and becomes UI to E/W.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Especially we have 25A1, telling us that a replacem= ent is allowed as<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0long<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0partner did not=C2=A0 bid, and we 25A6, telling us = how to deal with<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p(1): it may be withdrawn.<br> > <br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If 3H=C2=A0 is meant to be an intended bid that sho= uld be given in the next<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0round,=C2=A0 we are in 31 (and 27). Again N is allo= wed to bid 3S, but<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this time<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p(1) is not cancelled and it is AI to E/W.<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But now we are somewhere between 25B1, 25B2 and 31.= <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A031.C tells us, that a bid OOR shall be treated as a= change of call,<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0according to law 25 as long as LHO did not call.<br= > > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A025B1. is telling us, that a substition may be accep= ted; unfortunately it<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not tell when this right is ceasing.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Did North forfeit his right to accept a change of c= all, when he called<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p(1) over 3NT, throwing us do 25B2, or is acceptanc= e according to<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A025B1 still<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible?<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Volker Walther<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Blml mailing list<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"= >[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"= _blank">[email protected]</a>><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/= blml" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/l= istinfo/blml</a><br> > <br> > <br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.avg.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" = target=3D"_blank">https://www.avg.com</a><br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Blml mailing list<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"= >[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"= _blank">[email protected]</a>><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/= blml" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/l= istinfo/blml</a><br> > <br> > <br> > <<a href=3D"http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&a= mp;utm_source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailcl= ient" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.avg.com/email-signatu= re?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&am= p;utm_content=3Demailclient</a>><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Virus-free. <a href=3D"http://www.avg.com" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">www.avg.com</a><br> > <<a href=3D"http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&a= mp;utm_source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailcl= ient" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.avg.com/email-signatu= re?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&am= p;utm_content=3Demailclient</a>><br> > <br> > <br> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><br> > <br> > <br> > _______________________________________________<br> > Blml mailing list<br> > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>= <br> > <a href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml" rel=3D"norefe= rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><br= > > <br> <br> <br> -- <br> Volker Walther<br> _______________________________________________<br> Blml mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml" rel=3D"noreferrer"= target=3D"_blank">http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</a><br> </blockquote></div> --000000000000489c7f0575d6a2ba-- --===============1060184906== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Blml mailing list [email protected] http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml --===============1060184906==--