Re: Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31
"Jan Peach" <[email protected]> Sun, 16 Sep 2018 06:52:39 +1000
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.bridge.laws |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <A497D25B0A7A41FDAAACD4E6909ADB86@PeachPC> |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1589099821== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01D44D89.DBD03260" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01D44D89.DBD03260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having established that 3NT was an intended call, I also favour letting = the auction continue from 3S.=20 25B1 has no timing limit to accepting 3H. It does not say "LHO may not accept 3H if he had already called over = 3NT," so I don't think adding that to the laws is the only option. We could just as easily add, "LHO may accept 3H even if he had already = called over 3NT." I find to go the other way, that the laws don't expressly say that North = may do this and therefore he may not, less palatable.=20 At worst I see a "the laws are silent" situation and I don't favour = offenders. I see only one offender, West. I agree with others that 11A is not relevant. 25B1 caters for calling = intentionally over 3H. Therefore, without 11A, 3NT remains a call = withdrawn by the offending side and 16C and 26 would apply. Jan -----Original Message-----=20 From: Volker Walther=20 Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 12:47 AM=20 To: [email protected]=20 Subject: Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31=20 Hello Sven, I think we nearly agree how to handle the situation, but it is not the official line. Gordon and the EBL TD forum argued, that we are in law 25 because West obviously tried to replace his bid. To decide whether we are in 25A or in 25B, we have to know West's intention. As soon as we decide that it was an intended replacement, we are stuck to 25B and away from 31. (I do agree to that point) There is no such thing like 25A6 in 25B. So we do not have any speciial instruction, how to deal with North's first call (the "pass"). Furthermore Gordon told us: Lack of this instruction lead the forum to the conclusion, that West's intended change of a call may no longer be accepted by North, when he made a call ("pass") after the replaced bid (3NT). (I do not agree in this point) So, they argued, the replacement 3H has to be withdrawn. If 3H has to be withdrawn, we have to withdraw 3S as well. If North was no longer allowed to accept the change by bidding over it, he became an offending side when he made the illegal 3S bid. We do have laws for all the withdrawn bids (16C, 26, 11). They are leading us to a split-score as described. I do not like the result for several reasons. 1.) It is breaking the basic rule: "Whenever my RHO makes a call, I may accept it and treat it as regular. There will be no rectification." 2.) It depends on West's hidden intention whether North's 3S bid is = lawful. 3.a) We do not have special rules to deal with an action (e.g. the 3S bid) that is made by North after the infraction. 3.b) Applying general rules 26, 16C and 11 will mostly generate a split-score as final result, which likely is away from the normal result without the cancelled calls. I would prefer to avoid the situation by following this line: According to 25A1 North may accept the substitution of 3NT by 3H by bidding intentionally 3S over 3H - no matter whether he made a bid over 3NT. In this case 3NT is withdrawn (L25B1) and the following "pass" is withdrawn as well. 3H was an irregularity. 3S was an action of the non offending side, Law 11 A applies. Especially North is loosing his rights to rectify West's irregularity. 16C and 26 do no longer apply to the 3NT bid. Bidding 3S after 3H is allowed by 25A1. North is not an offending side for the purposes of 16C and 26 with respect to the withdrawn = "pass". (We have laws, telling us how to deal with this call!) If the TD has been called before North made the 3S bid, the TD should explain Law 25B, especially consequences of accepting the 3H bid by making a call over it as above, according to 9B1(c). He will also have to tell that North may not accept the replacement. If he does so, we have the usual rectifications for the 3H. Following this line we have have established the principle from 1.) and have consistent rulings in 25A, 27, 31 and 25B. Your way to handle the situation as either 25A , or 31 and 27 leads to a similar result. My impression is that you try do bend the law to save the basic principle 1). But we both are not not in accordance with Gordons and the forums line. Volker Am 14.09.2018 um 23:48 schrieb Sven Pran: >=20 >=20 > I don't understand this: >=20 > Which Law(s) does the TD apply after stating the facts: Law 25A, Law = 25B, Law 27A or Law 29A? (Other?) >=20 > He may (incorrectly) apply Law25A (Unintended Call), or (correctly) = apply Law 25B (Call Intended), or Laws 27A1 and 29A (insufficient bid = out of turn at partner's turn to call).=20 >=20 > In either case North has with his 3S bid accepted the 3H bid by West, = the auction continues from this 3S bid and there is no further = rectification. >=20 > On what ground (which Law?) do you state "3H and 3S are withdrawn".=20 >=20 > When you state that E and W both passes is this a voluntary action or = a rectification ordered by the TD (Which Law?)=20 >=20 > I believe you have overlooked Law 25A6 when you state that there is a = lead-penalty against South? >=20 > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P=C3=A5 vegne av = Volker Walther > Sendt: fredag 14. september 2018 21.08 > Til: Gordon Rainsford <[email protected]> > Kopi: BLML <[email protected]> > Emne: ***SPAM*** Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 >=20 > The original description arouse from a discussion between some TDs. IT = was no real case. >=20 > To make the last question more precise lets look at the following = hypothetical case: >=20 > Dealer: W > Vul.: E/W >=20 > W N E S > 2NT P 3T(a) P (a) Puppet-Stayman > 3NT* p * not alerted, meant to show H >=20 > West replaces swiftly 3NT by 3H, afterwards North replaces his Pass = by 3S, while South is already calling for the TD. >=20 > TD states the following facts: > Wests 3NT was intended, and he replaced it, when he saw that his = partner did not alert. North believed that West did replace an = unintended 3NT bid by 3H, and changed his bid, believing it was his = right according to 25A. >=20 > 3H and 3S are withdrawn.=20 > E and W both pass, and there is a lead-penalty against South (L26) >=20 > North plays low from spade: KQ9876. Dummy has Jx and 4 hearts. > South wins with the Ace. He is not allowed to return his small spade, = and 3NT is made with 2 overtricks. The field was in 4H+1, only one pair = played 3NT-2. >=20 > We will have the following results: > for NS 0 MP (as played) > for EW 1 MP (according to L11) >=20 > OK, we have the laws to handle this. But the outcome is not very = satisfying. Wests forbidden intended change of a call leads to a much = worse result for N/S than the replacement of an accidental, unintended = call would have done, and from norths point of view, both cases look = alike. >=20 > Volker Walther >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Am 14.09.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Gordon Rainsford: >> I think this is not clear from the original description. What action=20 >> are you positing that North has taken prior to the TD being called? >> And in what way are you suggesting they may have gained from it? >> >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:22 PM Volker Walther <[email protected]=20 >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> For me the biggest problem is that North may have believed to be = in a >> 25A case. If 25B does not allow to accept the change of call, the >> situation becomes hard to analyse: >> >> The withdrawn 3 Spade bid becomes UI to South and we have a lead = penalty >> against him. But for E/W we have to apply 11A; they are not = allowed to >> benefit, neither from the knowledge about the intended and = withdrawn 3S, >> nor from the lead penalty. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Am 13.09.2018 um 16:56 schrieb Sven Pran: >> > Because once North calls (for instance Pass) over the 3NT bid = by >> West it >> > becomes East that is in turn to call (unless the 3NT bid is >> accepted as >> > an unintended call). >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > In this case the 3NT bid by West clearly did not satisfy the >> conditions >> > for an unintended call so the 3H bid by West at this time is a=20 >> call at >> > East=E2=80=99s turn to call, i.e. a call out of turn. >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > Law 25A applies to unintended calls, but notice that the final = result >> > will be the same whether North (incorrectly) is given the >> opportunity to >> > accept the 3H bid as a change of his 3NT bid or (correctly) use = his >> > right to accept the 3H bid out of turn. The main difference is = what >> > effect the irregularity may have on the (following) auction = and/or >> play. >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > In either case North is allowed to eventually make his own = desired >> 3S bid. >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > *Fra:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> *P=C3=A5 = vegne av* >> > Gordon Rainsford >> > *Sendt:* torsdag 13. september 2018 16.01 >> > *Til:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> > *Kopi:* BLML <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > *Emne:* Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > Why would you want to pretend something was a call out of turn = when it >> > isn't? The terms of the original question told us that it was = an >> > intended change of call. >> > >> > =20 >> > >> > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:27 AM Sven Pran <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >> > >> > Why not apply Law 31B1? >> > West's changed bid of 3H is actually a call out of rotation = at >> > East's turn >> > to call, this changed call stands and North is now in turn = to >> call. >> > North is free to bid 3S and East may then make any legal = call. >> > Law 16C2 now applies. >> > (North do not have the option to refuse West's change of = call!) >> > >> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- >> > Fra: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> = P=C3=A5 >> vegne av >> > Volker >> > Walther >> > Sendt: onsdag 12. september 2018 17.53 >> > Til: blml <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> >> > Emne: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 >> > >> > When does the right (25B1) to accept an intended change of >> call cease? >> > >> > The bidding >> > >> > W N E S >> > 2NT P 3T(a) P (a) Puppet-Stayman >> > 3NT* p(1) (*) Meant to show 5 hearts. >> > >> > Now West remembers that he has to bid 3H to show his hearts = and >> > replaces his >> > bid. North wants to accept this change; he is wants to bid = 3S. >> > >> > >> > If 3NT had been unintended, we are in law 25A, 3S is an >> allowed bid. >> > p(1) is cancelled and becomes UI to E/W. >> > Especially we have 25A1, telling us that a replacement is >> allowed as >> > long >> > partner did not bid, and we 25A6, telling us how to deal = with >> > p(1): it may be withdrawn. >> > >> > >> > If 3H is meant to be an intended bid that should be given = in >> the next >> > round, we are in 31 (and 27). Again N is allowed to bid = 3S, but >> > this time >> > p(1) is not cancelled and it is AI to E/W. >> > >> > But now we are somewhere between 25B1, 25B2 and 31. >> > 31.C tells us, that a bid OOR shall be treated as a change = of >> call, >> > according to law 25 as long as LHO did not call. >> > >> > 25B1. is telling us, that a substition may be accepted; >> unfortunately it >> > does not tell when this right is ceasing. >> > Did North forfeit his right to accept a change of call, = when >> he called >> > p(1) over 3NT, throwing us do 25B2, or is acceptance = according to >> > 25B1 still >> > possible? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Volker Walther >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Blml mailing list >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >> > >> > >> > --- >> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. >> > https://www.avg.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Blml mailing list >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >> > >> > >> = <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&= utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> >> > Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >> > >> = <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&= utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> >> > >> > >> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Blml mailing list >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >> >> >> --=20 >> Volker Walther >> _______________________________________________ >> Blml mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> >=20 >=20 > -- > Volker Walther > _______________________________________________ > Blml mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Blml mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >=20 --=20 Volker Walther _______________________________________________ Blml mailing list [email protected] http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01D44D89.DBD03260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY dir=3Dltr> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having established that 3NT was an intended call, I also favour = letting the=20 auction continue from 3S. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>25B1 has no timing limit to accepting 3H.</DIV> <DIV>It does not say "LHO may not accept 3H if he had already called = over 3NT,"=20 so I don't think adding that to the laws is the only option.</DIV> <DIV>We could just as easily add, "LHO may accept 3H even if he had = already=20 called over 3NT."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find to go the other way, that the laws don't expressly say that = North=20 may do this and therefore he may not, less palatable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At worst I see a "the laws are silent" situation and I don't favour = offenders. I see only one offender, West.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with others that 11A is not relevant. 25B1 caters for = calling=20 intentionally over 3H. Therefore, without 11A, 3NT remains a call = withdrawn by=20 the offending side and 16C and 26 would apply.</DIV> <DIV>Jan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-----Original Message----- </DIV> <DIV>From: Volker Walther </DIV> <DIV>Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 12:47 AM </DIV> <DIV>To: [email protected] </DIV> <DIV>Subject: Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hello Sven, I think we nearly agree how to handle the situation, = but=20 it</DIV> <DIV>is not the official line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gordon and the EBL TD forum argued, that we are in law 25 because=20 West</DIV> <DIV>obviously tried to replace his bid. To decide whether we are in 25A = or</DIV> <DIV>in 25B, we have to know West's intention. As soon as we decide that = it</DIV> <DIV>was an intended replacement, we are stuck to 25B and away from = 31.</DIV> <DIV>(I do agree to that point)</DIV> <DIV>There is no such thing like 25A6 in 25B. So we do not have any=20 speciial</DIV> <DIV>instruction, how to deal with North's first call (the = "pass").</DIV> <DIV>Furthermore Gordon told us: Lack of this instruction lead the forum = to</DIV> <DIV>the conclusion, that West's intended change of a call may no longer = be</DIV> <DIV>accepted by North, when he made a call ("pass") after = the=20 replaced bid</DIV> <DIV>(3NT).</DIV> <DIV>(I do not agree in this point)</DIV> <DIV>So, they argued, the replacement 3H has to be withdrawn. If 3H has = to=20 be</DIV> <DIV>withdrawn, we have to withdraw 3S as well. If North was no = longer</DIV> <DIV>allowed to accept the change by bidding over it, he became an=20 offending</DIV> <DIV>side when he made the illegal 3S bid. We do have laws for all = the</DIV> <DIV>withdrawn bids (16C, 26, 11). They are leading us to a = split-score=20 as</DIV> <DIV>described.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not like the result for several reasons.</DIV> <DIV>1.) It is breaking the basic rule: "Whenever my RHO makes a call, I = may</DIV> <DIV>accept it and treat it as regular. There will be no = rectification."</DIV> <DIV>2.) It depends on West's hidden intention whether North's 3S bid is = lawful.</DIV> <DIV>3.a) We do not have special rules to deal with an action (e.g. the = 3S</DIV> <DIV>bid) that is made by North after the infraction.</DIV> <DIV>3.b) Applying general rules 26, 16C and 11 will mostly = generate=20 a</DIV> <DIV>split-score as final result, which likely is away from the normal=20 result</DIV> <DIV>without the cancelled calls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would prefer to avoid the situation by following this line:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>According to 25A1 North may accept the substitution of 3NT by 3H = by</DIV> <DIV>bidding intentionally 3S over 3H - no matter whether he made a bid=20 over</DIV> <DIV>3NT. In this case 3NT is withdrawn (L25B1) and the following "pass" = is</DIV> <DIV>withdrawn as well. 3H was an irregularity. 3S was an action of the=20 non</DIV> <DIV>offending side, Law 11 A applies. Especially North is loosing his=20 rights</DIV> <DIV>to rectify West's irregularity. 16C and 26 do no longer apply to = the=20 3NT</DIV> <DIV>bid. Bidding 3S after 3H is allowed by 25A1. North is not an=20 offending</DIV> <DIV>side for the purposes of 16C and 26 with respect to the withdrawn=20 "pass".</DIV> <DIV>(We have laws, telling us how to deal with this call!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the TD has been called before North made the 3S bid, the TD = should</DIV> <DIV>explain Law 25B, especially consequences of accepting the 3H bid = by</DIV> <DIV>making a call over it as above, according to 9B1(c). He will = also=20 have</DIV> <DIV>to tell that North may not accept the replacement. If he does so, = we</DIV> <DIV>have the usual rectifications for the 3H.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Following this line we have have established the principle from 1.) = and</DIV> <DIV>have consistent rulings in 25A, 27, 31 and 25B.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your way to handle the situation as either 25A , or 31 and 27 leads = to=20 a</DIV> <DIV>similar result. My impression is that you try do bend the law = to =20 save</DIV> <DIV>the basic principle 1).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But we both are not not in accordance with Gordons and the = forums=20 line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Volker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am 14.09.2018 um 23:48 schrieb Sven Pran:</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> I don't understand this:</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> Which Law(s) does the TD apply after stating the facts: Law = 25A, Law=20 25B, Law 27A or Law 29A? (Other?)</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> He may (incorrectly) apply Law25A (Unintended Call), or = (correctly)=20 apply Law 25B (Call Intended), or Laws 27A1 and 29A (insufficient bid = out of=20 turn at partner's turn to call). </DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> In either case North has with his 3S bid accepted the 3H bid = by West,=20 the auction continues from this 3S bid and there is no further=20 rectification.</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> On what ground (which Law?) do you state "3H and 3S are=20 withdrawn". </DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> When you state that E and W both passes is this a voluntary = action or=20 a rectification ordered by the TD (Which Law?) </DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> I believe you have overlooked Law 25A6 when you state that = there is a=20 lead-penalty against South?</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> -----Opprinnelig melding-----</DIV> <DIV>> Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> = P=C3=A5 vegne av=20 Volker Walther</DIV> <DIV>> Sendt: fredag 14. september 2018 21.08</DIV> <DIV>> Til: Gordon Rainsford <[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>> Kopi: BLML <[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>> Emne: ***SPAM*** Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> The original description arouse from a discussion between some = TDs. IT=20 was no real case.</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> To make the last question more precise lets look at the=20 following hypothetical case:</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> Dealer: W</DIV> <DIV>> Vul.: E/W</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> W N =20 E S</DIV> <DIV>> 2NT P = 3T(a) =20 P (a) Puppet-Stayman</DIV> <DIV>> 3NT* =20 p = =20 * not alerted, meant to show H</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> West replaces swiftly 3NT by 3H, afterwards North = replaces his=20 Pass by 3S, while South is already calling for the TD.</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> TD states the following facts:</DIV> <DIV>> Wests 3NT was intended, and he replaced it, when he saw that = his=20 partner did not alert. North believed that West did replace an = unintended 3NT=20 bid by 3H, and changed his bid, believing it was his right according to=20 25A.</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> 3H and 3S are withdrawn. </DIV> <DIV>> E and W both pass, and there is a lead-penalty against South=20 (L26)</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> North plays low from spade: KQ9876. Dummy has Jx = and 4=20 hearts.</DIV> <DIV>> South wins with the Ace. He is not allowed to return his = small=20 spade, and 3NT is made with 2 overtricks. The field was in 4H+1, only = one pair=20 played 3NT-2.</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> We will have the following results:</DIV> <DIV>> for NS 0 MP (as played)</DIV> <DIV>> for EW 1 MP (according to L11)</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> OK, we have the laws to handle this. But the outcome is not = very=20 satisfying. Wests forbidden intended change of a call leads to a much = worse=20 result for N/S than the replacement of an accidental, unintended call = would have=20 done, and from norths point of view, both cases look alike.</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> Volker Walther</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> Am 14.09.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Gordon Rainsford:</DIV> <DIV>>> I think this is not clear from the original description. = What=20 action </DIV> <DIV>>> are you positing that North has taken prior to the TD = being=20 called?</DIV> <DIV>>> And in what way are you suggesting they may have gained = from=20 it?</DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:22 PM Volker Walther=20 <[email protected] </DIV> <DIV>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:</DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>> For me the biggest problem is that = North=20 may have believed to be in a</DIV> <DIV>>> 25A case. If 25B does not allow to = accept=20 the change of call, the</DIV> <DIV>>> situation becomes hard to = analyse:</DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>> The withdrawn 3 Spade bid becomes = UI to=20 South and we have a lead penalty</DIV> <DIV>>> against him. But for E/W we have = to apply=20 11A; they are not allowed to</DIV> <DIV>>> benefit, neither from the = knowledge about=20 the intended and withdrawn 3S,</DIV> <DIV>>> nor from the lead penalty.</DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>> Am 13.09.2018 um 16:56 schrieb = Sven=20 Pran:</DIV> <DIV>>> > Because once North calls (for = instance Pass) over the 3NT bid by</DIV> <DIV>>> West it</DIV> <DIV>>> > becomes East that is in turn = to call=20 (unless the 3NT bid is</DIV> <DIV>>> accepted as</DIV> <DIV>>> > an unintended call).</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > </DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > In this case the 3NT bid by = West=20 clearly did not satisfy the</DIV> <DIV>>> conditions</DIV> <DIV>>> > for an unintended call so the = 3H bid=20 by West at this time is a </DIV> <DIV>>> call at</DIV> <DIV>>> > East=E2=80=99s turn to call, = i.e. a call out=20 of turn.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > </DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > Law 25A applies to = unintended =20 calls, but notice that the final result</DIV> <DIV>>> > will be the same whether = North=20 (incorrectly) is given the</DIV> <DIV>>> opportunity to</DIV> <DIV>>> > accept the 3H bid as a change = of his=20 3NT bid or (correctly) use his</DIV> <DIV>>> > right to accept the 3H bid = out of=20 turn. The main difference is what</DIV> <DIV>>> > effect the irregularity may = have on=20 the (following) auction and/or</DIV> <DIV>>> play.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > </DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > In either case North is = allowed to=20 eventually make his own desired</DIV> <DIV>>> 3S bid.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > </DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > *Fra:* [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>>> <[email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]>> *P=C3=A5 vegne av*</DIV> <DIV>>> > Gordon Rainsford</DIV> <DIV>>> > *Sendt:* torsdag 13. = september 2018=20 16.01</DIV> <DIV>>> > *Til:* [email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>>> > *Kopi:* BLML = <[email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]>></DIV> <DIV>>> > *Emne:* Re: [Blml] Law 25B1: = Between=20 25A and 31</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > </DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > Why would you want to pretend = something was a call out of turn when it</DIV> <DIV>>> > isn't? The terms of the = original=20 question told us that it was an</DIV> <DIV>>> > intended change of = call.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > </DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:27 = AM Sven=20 Pran <[email protected]</DIV> <DIV>>> = <mailto:[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>>> > <mailto:[email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > Why = not apply=20 Law 31B1?</DIV> <DIV>>> > = West's=20 changed bid of 3H is actually a call out of rotation at</DIV> <DIV>>> > = East's=20 turn</DIV> <DIV>>> > to = call, this=20 changed call stands and North is now in turn to</DIV> <DIV>>> call.</DIV> <DIV>>> > North = is free=20 to bid 3S and East may then make any legal call.</DIV> <DIV>>> > Law = 16C2 now=20 applies.</DIV> <DIV>>> > = (North do not=20 have the option to refuse West's change of call!)</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 -----Opprinnelig melding-----</DIV> <DIV>>> > Fra:=20 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>>> <mailto:[email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]>></DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>>> <mailto:[email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]>>> P=C3=A5</DIV> <DIV>>> vegne av</DIV> <DIV>>> > = Volker</DIV> <DIV>>> > = Walther</DIV> <DIV>>> > = Sendt: onsdag=20 12. september 2018 17.53</DIV> <DIV>>> > Til: = blml=20 <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>>> <mailto:[email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]>>></DIV> <DIV>>> > Emne: = [Blml]=20 Law 25B1: Between 25A and 31</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > When = does the=20 right (25B1) to accept an intended change of</DIV> <DIV>>> call cease?</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > The=20 bidding</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 W N =20 E S</DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 2NT P 3T(a) =20 P (a) Puppet-Stayman</DIV> <DIV>>> > = 3NT* =20 p(1) &nb= sp; =20 (*) Meant to show 5 hearts.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > Now = West=20 remembers that he has to bid 3H to show his hearts and</DIV> <DIV>>> > = replaces=20 his</DIV> <DIV>>> > bid. = North=20 wants to accept this change; he is wants to bid 3S.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > If = 3NT had=20 been unintended, we are in law 25A, 3S is an</DIV> <DIV>>> allowed bid.</DIV> <DIV>>> > p(1) = is=20 cancelled and becomes UI to E/W.</DIV> <DIV>>> > = Especially we=20 have 25A1, telling us that a replacement is</DIV> <DIV>>> allowed as</DIV> <DIV>>> > = long</DIV> <DIV>>> > = partner did=20 not bid, and we 25A6, telling us how to deal with</DIV> <DIV>>> > p(1): = it may=20 be withdrawn.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > If = 3H =20 is meant to be an intended bid that should be given in</DIV> <DIV>>> the next</DIV> <DIV>>> > = round, =20 we are in 31 (and 27). Again N is allowed to bid 3S, but</DIV> <DIV>>> > this=20 time</DIV> <DIV>>> > p(1) = is not=20 cancelled and it is AI to E/W.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > But = now we=20 are somewhere between 25B1, 25B2 and 31.</DIV> <DIV>>> > 31.C = tells=20 us, that a bid OOR shall be treated as a change of</DIV> <DIV>>> call,</DIV> <DIV>>> > = according to=20 law 25 as long as LHO did not call.</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > 25B1. = is=20 telling us, that a substition may be accepted;</DIV> <DIV>>> unfortunately it</DIV> <DIV>>> > does = not tell=20 when this right is ceasing.</DIV> <DIV>>> > Did = North=20 forfeit his right to accept a change of call, when</DIV> <DIV>>> he called</DIV> <DIV>>> > p(1) = over=20 3NT, throwing us do 25B2, or is acceptance according to</DIV> <DIV>>> > 25B1=20 still</DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 possible?</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > = --</DIV> <DIV>>> > = Volker=20 Walther</DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 _______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>>> > Blml = mailing=20 list</DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]</DIV> <DIV>>> = <mailto:[email protected]>></DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > = ---</DIV> <DIV>>> > This = email=20 has been checked for viruses by AVG.</DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 https://www.avg.com</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 _______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>>> > Blml = mailing=20 list</DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = <mailto:[email protected]</DIV> <DIV>>> = <mailto:[email protected]>></DIV> <DIV>>> > =20 http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> =20 <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3D= link&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient></DIV>= <DIV>>> = > =20 Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> =20 <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3D= link&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient></DIV>= <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> >=20 <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>> >=20 _______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>>> > Blml mailing list</DIV> <DIV>>> > [email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>>> >=20 http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</DIV> <DIV>>> ></DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>> -- </DIV> <DIV>>> Volker Walther</DIV> <DIV>>> =20 _______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>>> Blml mailing list</DIV> <DIV>>> [email protected]=20 <mailto:[email protected]></DIV> <DIV>>> =20 http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> --</DIV> <DIV>> Volker Walther</DIV> <DIV>> _______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>> Blml mailing list</DIV> <DIV>> [email protected]</DIV> <DIV>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV>> _______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>> Blml mailing list</DIV> <DIV>> [email protected]</DIV> <DIV>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</DIV> <DIV>> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- </DIV> <DIV>Volker Walther</DIV> <DIV>_______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>Blml mailing list</DIV> <DIV>[email protected]</DIV> <DIV>http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>= </DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01D44D89.DBD03260-- --===============1589099821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Blml mailing list [email protected] http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml --===============1589099821==--