RE: I just don't get it (Was: Scripting Systems)

There's a flaw in your message. Having a low-level language that can
pre-process lines (i.e. #define), you can write macros to help designers do
what they want. BUT (and that's a big but) the people who DO know to use c++
have the possibility to use its flexibility, as well. It's all about not
actively cutting the designer's hands if they can use the language's
subtleties.

----------------------------------
Peace and love,
Tweety
[email protected] - [email protected]
YahooID: tweety_04_01

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Lewin, Gareth
Sent: April 21, 2004 11:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [GD-General] I just don't get it (Was: Scripting Systems)

My thoughts.... 

Sudeki has proven to me that a low level scripting language is probably
a bad idea. A lot of the problems on Sudeki are due to the designers not
being as technical as we would have hoped, and from what I hear from
people that are on the project now, it's still causing problems.

So if you are targeting a designer, you really want to give them a
higher level language. I would say that python and tcl and friends are
even a bit too low level, but that's a gut feeling, not something from
experience.

I do know that when I worked on point and click adventures all those
years ago, our extremely basic scripting language proved to be somewhat
more of a success, with designers and "low level" (excuse the term, not
sure what the best way to say it is) programmers doing a lot of work
very easily. (I can go into more details if anyone is interested)

I think the point I want to make is that scripting (for game play
scripting) needs to be a sandbox, with not much power, basically holding
the designer's hands. Right now if I had time, I would seriously
consider trying to write a nice visual scripting language, something
similar to what I heard XSI had a few years back.

Note, if your scripting language is targeted at the same people that are
writing c++ code, then by all means, go ahead with a low level language,
but you have to then justify to yourself the use of a scripting language
and not just plain code. The option of (for example) using python to
prototype stuff and then porting what is needed to c++ in this scenario
sounds like a good idea, and seems to be what a lot of people are doing.


I can't wait for the next generation of consoles myself. Actually I
mainly can't wait until the PS/2 stops being the bread and butter of
game developers. Maybe then python will become a much more viable
option...

_________________________________________
Gareth Lewin - http://www.garethlewin.com

"Facts are useless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even
remotely true. Facts shmacts!" -- Homer Jay Simpson.

-----Original Message-----
From: tweety [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [GD-General] I just don't get it (Was: Scripting Systems)


this is a real thread ressurection, so be amazed! :))
Anyway, have any of you looked at http://www.angelcode.com/angelscript/
? It's a byte-code interpreted scripting language that mimics c++,
including classes and pointers (ok, so you can't move them, but you can
use
operator*() on them). It's portable, too.

----------------------------------
Peace and love,
Tweety
[email protected] - [email protected]
YahooID: tweety_04_01



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Garett Bass
Sent: February 4, 2004 8:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [GD-General] I just don't get it (Was: Scripting Systems)

Design folks,

	Ok, sorry to distract you all, but I just don't get it.  After
reading about Brian's problems with his scripts (and additionally having
considered the problem at length without actually implementing any
scripting system myself [except for my pitiful attempt at *writing* a
scripting system for Deer Hunter 3, which we won't go into here for fear
of grave embarrassment to myself]) it seems to me that "scripting" is
being used to solve problems that could just as easily be solved by real
code.

	Please enlighten my heathen mind: Why not simply compile your
"scripts" into C/C++ .DLLs?  These are the arguments I can vaguely
recall for scripting, but I just don't think they hold up:

1. You don't have to compile scripts.

	I mean, ok, yeah, you gotta spend a few seconds on compiling
some C/C++ into a .DLL (holy mother of poo!), but that serves a handy
purpose: the compiler checks a variety of error and warning conditions
that give you immediate feedback before you even try the script.  And if
it is so difficult to arrange a test case for the script's performance,
are you really saving any time by not using a compiled language?

2. Scripting code is easier for designers to write.

	Um, really?  Is Lua any easier to write than C?  Ok, it's more
verbose, but verbose just means more symbols to remember and use
correctly.  At work I'm stuck using Visual Basic, and while it is pretty
handy for our problem domain (RAD w/ database and native GUI), it also
really confuses some of my
C++ instincts (and vice-versa).

3. The security of a sandbox.

	Ok, you've got me there, if your primary goal in scripting is to
allow your fanbase to create new content without exposing other users to
a variety of security scenarios, then I suppose you've found your holy
grail.  At the cost of 15x performance of course.  I seem to recall the
user community (PlanetQuake et al.) doing a pretty good job of filtering
through the security of mods, in fact, I don't recall any news of
blaster or welchia worms arising from Q2 mods, but you know, whatever
keeps your paranoid heart skipping happily along, go for it.  Even if it
is a huge pain in the ass.

	All that aside, I do believe there are some C-syntax scripting
languages out there these days (http://csl.sourceforge.net/csl.html).
In the realm of other ideas, Battlefield 1942 uses a "scripting"
language that is really more along the lines of a gameplay balancing
dataset.  You can code up new vehicles in plain text by combining
engines and meshes and various attributes in new and interesting ways,
but you can't really change the core gameplay mechanic.

	I'm just not significantly compelled to go beyond dynamic
library-based extendability for the time being.  However, I am
significantly compelled to find out why the higher minds of my time
think otherwise.  Please excuse my dear Aunt Sally.

Regards,
Garett Bass
[email protected]



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