Re: Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created conte nt providers, beware!
"Bob" <[email protected]> Tue, 27 May 2008 10:29:23 -0500
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0815358626== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C8BFE4.881279A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C8BFE4.881279A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to be blunt, but your storefront doesn't solve any problem. = Certainly, you may create the eBay of artwork, centralizing commerce = (you would not be much of a pioneer in that field now), but without = copyright protection one sale is enough to completely devalue the work. = The artist would be better served working on commission for business = companies, where they still only make one sale, but themselves determine = (often through bidding) the value of their work. The problem is not how to charge for a work of art. Nor even how to keep = people from copying a work that is on the internet for private use. It = is, rather, how to avoid having your labour (and I do mean labour, as = any 3d artist can tell you that a decent model represents often hundreds = of hours of eye-straining, wrist-damaging work), exploited for the = profit of others without compensation. --b From: Crosbie Fitch=20 To: '[email protected]'=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 4:42 AM Subject: Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created = conte nt providers, beware! The QuestionCopyright article uses 'publishers' in the sense of = 'traditional publishers' for whom copyright was intended to most = benefit. Copyright is actually impotent in the hands of self-publishers = (web authors). It is understandable that traditional publishers will villify those = who ignore their monopolies through file sharing, and that file sharers = will villify those publishers who exert tortuous litigation against them = (especially when those monopolies were never intended to prosecute the = public at large). As for authors selling their work to their audience without relying = upon copyright, I'll summarise what I've been up to in that area below, = and then list a few links to Mike Masnick's ideas below that. However, do bear in mind that the issue isn't whether we rely upon = copyright for another century or do without it. That decision has = already been made. The issue is how we do without it, because it's no = longer even effective, let alone reliable. I propose abolition not = because that will stop people using unethical privileges, but because it = would stop many people getting unnecessarily persecuted by litigous = publishers grinding metal long after all tyres have burnt off (their = copyright vehicle having reached a wall of ineffectiveness). So, what am I up to in trying to solve the problem of how to earn a = living from one's art without copyright? Rather than advertising, the niche I'm focusing on is facilitating = bargains between artist and audience, given these two parties seem most = interested in an exchange of art for money. I started thinking along these lines when wondering how on earth one = could enable members of the public to sell 3D art in a virtual world if = it was completely decentralised (lawless wild-west): http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/article_display.php?category=3D14=20 I then proposed an auction mechanism whereby an audience could haggle = with an artist and all arrive at an agreeable price (that all successful = bidders would pay), sooner or later. http://www.digitalartauction.com/=20 For gamers here's a spin-off article I wrote for Develop magazine: = http://tdaa.digitalproductions.co.uk/history/bcbm.htm I then decided something simpler would be better: = http://www.quidmusic.com/=20 Convinced I was on the right track, but not convinced I was best = placed to take QuidMusic forward, I decided to create an engine that = would support all manner of sites that needed to enable trading between = artist and audience, i.e. http://www.contingencymarket.com/ . This, = being commission free, would then enable anyone to use it in support of = their own site. I'm now working on an even simpler site than quidmusic: 1p2u.com . = It's in very early stages of development, but this will = test/debug/demonstrate the contingencymarket. I'll then use it to = replace the engine in quidmusic, and finally implement = digitalartauction, and others, e.g. quidgames. See my site http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk for other links, e.g. = http://micropledge.com Here's Mike Masnick's articles from TechDirt (for another approach = entirely) The Grand Unified Theory On The Economics Of Free http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070503/012939.shtml Others: a.. Economics Of Abundance Getting Some Well Deserved Attention a.. The Importance Of Zero In Destroying The Scarcity Myth Of = Economics a.. The Economics Of Abundance Is Not A Moral Issue a.. A Lack Of Scarcity Has (Almost) Nothing To Do With Piracy a.. A Lack Of Scarcity Feeds The Long Tail By Increasing The Pie a.. Why The Lack Of Scarcity In Economics Is Getting More Important = Now a.. History Repeats Itself: How The RIAA Is Like 17th Century French = Button-Makers a.. Infinity Is Your Friend In Economics a.. Step One To Embracing A Lack Of Scarcity: Recognize What Market = You're Really In a.. Why I Hope The RIAA Succeeds a.. Saying You Can't Compete With Free Is Saying You Can't Compete = Period a.. Perhaps It's Not The Entertainment Industry's Business Model = That's Outdated a.. An Economic Explanation For Why DRM Cannot Open Up New Business = Model Opportunities a.. Recognizing That Just About Any Product Is A Bundle Of Scarce And = Non-Scarce Goods a.. Scarcity Isn't As Scarce As You Might Think=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Troy Gilbert [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Tuesday, 27 May 2008 9:47am > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: > User-created conte nt providers, beware! > > > http://questioncopyright.org/promise > > Just an initial thought... the point is made here that copyright > "serves no one's interests but the publishers'." Of course, this > article uses "publishers" in the same vein as the RIAA uses "file > sharer", that is they vilify it to serve the purposes of their > argument. > > In fact, they stress time and again that the Internet has brought > about "instantaneous, costless sharing" which apparently is > justification enough for not charing for information -- something I > don't quite understand: why is that because something is "costless" > (even though it's not *actually* costless, but it's pretty close for > most scenarios) it's wrong to charge for it anyway? I mean, it = doesn't > cost me anything to play my guitar, but I'd certainly not be in the > wrong to charge people to listen to a performance (and that seems to > be the "solution" for artists offered up by copyright-squashers). > > But something I don't see addressed... in this "Internet-era" we see > many, many more artists that are also self-published. So, these > arguments and vilification of "publishers" and championing of = artists > kinda breaks down in a world where there are a great many > self-published artists. In effect, you could substitute artist for > publisher in many of this article's statements with the result being > an argument for stripping *artists* of control over their work and > their ability to derive income from it! Yikes! > > Explain to me this: in a world where copyright is abolished, how = does > an author earn an income? Let's say Tom the author writes a book and > sells a copy to Bob. Bob works for Random House. He goes to work and > hands Random House Tom's book. He says, "I wrote this. Let's publish > it." Random House prints thousands of copies and with their = marketing > strength drowns out any attempt by Tom to promote and sell his own > work. And without copyright, he has no recourse because Random House > has done nothing wrong ("information wants to be free, man..."). > > So, tell me, practically, given the world we live in today (or > tomorrow, or 10 years from now), how would a creator of IP earn a > living? > > Troy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557 ------=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C8BFE4.881279A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6001.18023" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry to be blunt, but your storefront = doesn't=20 solve any problem. Certainly, you may create the eBay of artwork, = centralizing=20 commerce (you would not be much of a pioneer in that field now), but = without=20 copyright protection one sale is enough to completely devalue the work. = The=20 artist would be better served working on commission for business = companies,=20 where they still only make one sale, but themselves determine (often = through=20 bidding) the value of their work.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The problem is not how to charge for a = work of art.=20 Nor even how to keep people from copying a work that is on the internet = for=20 private use. It is, rather, how to avoid having your labour (and I do = mean<EM>=20 labour</EM>, as any 3d artist can tell you that a decent model = represents often=20 hundreds of hours of eye-straining, wrist-damaging=20 <STRONG><EM>work)</EM></STRONG>, exploited for the profit=20 of others without compensation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--b</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><B>From:</B> <A [email protected]=20 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Crosbie Fitch</A> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 [email protected]=20 = href=3D"mailto:'[email protected]'">'gamedevlist= [email protected]'</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 27, 2008 = 4:42 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [GD-General] = Pro-IP bill=20 passed the house: User-created conte nt providers, beware!</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format --><FONT size=3D2>The=20 QuestionCopyright article uses 'publishers' in the sense of = 'traditional=20 publishers' for whom copyright was intended to most benefit. Copyright = is=20 actually impotent in the hands of self-publishers (web = authors).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>It is understandable that traditional publishers = will=20 villify those who ignore their monopolies through file sharing, = and=20 that file sharers will villify those publishers=20 who exert tortuous litigation against them (especially = when=20 those monopolies were never intended to prosecute the public at=20 large).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>As for authors selling their work to their = audience without=20 relying upon copyright, I'll summarise what I've been up to in that = area=20 below, and then list a few links to Mike Masnick's ideas below=20 that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>However, do bear in mind that the issue isn't = whether we=20 rely upon copyright for another century or do without it. That = decision has=20 already been made. The issue is how we do without it, because it's no = longer=20 even effective, let alone reliable. I propose abolition not because = that will=20 stop people using unethical privileges, but because it would stop many = people=20 getting unnecessarily persecuted by litigous publishers grinding metal = long=20 after all tyres have burnt off (their copyright vehicle having = reached a=20 wall of ineffectiveness).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>So, what am I up to in trying to solve the problem = of how to=20 earn a living from one's art without copyright?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Rather than advertising, the niche I'm focusing on is = facilitating=20 bargains between artist and audience, given these two parties seem = most=20 interested in an exchange of art for money.<BR><BR>I started thinking = along=20 these lines when wondering how on earth one could enable members of = the public=20 to sell 3D art in a virtual world if it was completely decentralised = (lawless=20 wild-west):<BR><A title=3Dgamasutra.com=20 = href=3D"http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/article_display.php?category=3D1= 4">http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/article_display.php?category=3D14</A>= =20 <BR><BR>I then proposed an auction mechanism whereby an audience could = haggle=20 with an artist and all arrive at an agreeable price (that all = successful=20 bidders would pay), sooner or later.<BR><A = title=3Ddigitalartauction.com=20 = href=3D"http://www.digitalartauction.com/">http://www.digitalartauction.c= om/</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>For gamers here's a = spin-off=20 article I wrote for Develop magazine: <A=20 = href=3D"http://tdaa.digitalproductions.co.uk/history/bcbm.htm">http://tda= a.digitalproductions.co.uk/history/bcbm.htm</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><BR>I then = decided something=20 simpler would be better: <A title=3Dquidmusic.com=20 href=3D"http://www.quidmusic.com/">http://www.quidmusic.com/</A>=20 <BR><BR>Convinced I was on the right track, but not convinced I was = best=20 placed to take QuidMusic forward, I decided to create an engine that = would=20 support all manner of sites that needed to enable trading between = artist and=20 audience, i.e. <A title=3Dcontingencymarket.com=20 = href=3D"http://www.contingencymarket.com/">http://www.contingencymarket.c= om/</A>=20 . This, being commission free, would then enable anyone to use it in = support=20 of their own site.<BR><BR>I'm now working on an even simpler site than = quidmusic: 1p2u.com . It's in very early stages of development, but = this will=20 test/debug/demonstrate the contingencymarket. I'll then use it to = replace the=20 engine in quidmusic, and finally implement digitalartauction, and = others, e.g.=20 quidgames.</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>See my site <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk">http://www.digitalproduction= s.co.uk</A>=20 for other links, e.g. <A=20 = href=3D"http://micropledge.com">http://micropledge.com</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Here's Mike Masnick's articles from TechDirt (for = another=20 approach entirely)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The Grand Unified = Theory On The=20 Economics Of Free</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20 = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070503/012939.shtml">http://ww= w.techdirt.com/articles/20070503/012939.shtml</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff>Others:</FONT></DIV> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061026/102329.shtml">Economics= =20 Of Abundance Getting Some Well Deserved Attention</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061025/014811.shtml">The=20 Importance Of Zero In Destroying The Scarcity Myth Of = Economics</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061115/020157.shtml">The=20 Economics Of Abundance Is Not A Moral Issue</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061129/010043.shtml">A Lack = Of=20 Scarcity Has (Almost) Nothing To Do With Piracy</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061206/011155.shtml">A Lack = Of=20 Scarcity Feeds The Long Tail By Increasing The Pie</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061213/234018.shtml">Why The=20 Lack Of Scarcity In Economics Is Getting More Important Now</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070110/004225.shtml">History=20 Repeats Itself: How The RIAA Is Like 17th Century French = Button-Makers</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070118/013310.shtml">Infinity = Is Your Friend In Economics</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070125/004949.shtml">Step One = To Embracing A Lack Of Scarcity: Recognize What Market You're Really=20 In</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070201/004218.shtml">Why I=20 Hope The RIAA Succeeds</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070215/002923.shtml">Saying=20 You Can't Compete With Free Is Saying You Can't Compete Period</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070222/002451.shtml">Perhaps=20 It's Not The Entertainment Industry's Business Model That's = Outdated</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/article.php?sid=3D20070301/005837">An=20 Economic Explanation For Why DRM Cannot Open Up New Business Model=20 Opportunities</A><BR> <LI><A=20 = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070315/013313.shtml">Recognizi= ng That=20 Just About Any Product Is A Bundle Of Scarce And Non-Scarce = Goods</A><BR> <LI><A = href=3D"http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070322/024237.shtml">Scarcity = Isn't As Scarce As You Might Think</A>=20 <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20 color=3D#0000ff></FONT><BR><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> = From:=20 Troy Gilbert [<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</A>]= <BR>>=20 Sent: Tuesday, 27 May 2008 9:47am<BR>> To:=20 [email protected]<BR>> Subject: Re: = [GD-General]=20 Pro-IP bill passed the house:<BR>> User-created conte nt providers, = beware!<BR>><BR>> > <A=20 = href=3D"http://questioncopyright.org/promise">http://questioncopyright.or= g/promise</A><BR>><BR>>=20 Just an initial thought... the point is made here that = copyright<BR>>=20 "serves no one's interests but the publishers'." Of course, = this<BR>>=20 article uses "publishers" in the same vein as the RIAA uses = "file<BR>>=20 sharer", that is they vilify it to serve the purposes of their<BR>> = argument.<BR>><BR>> In fact, they stress time and again that the = Internet has brought<BR>> about "instantaneous, costless sharing" = which=20 apparently is<BR>> justification enough for not charing for = information --=20 something I<BR>> don't quite understand: why is that because = something is=20 "costless"<BR>> (even though it's not *actually* costless, but it's = pretty=20 close for<BR>> most scenarios) it's wrong to charge for it anyway? = I mean,=20 it doesn't<BR>> cost me anything to play my guitar, but I'd = certainly not=20 be in the<BR>> wrong to charge people to listen to a performance = (and that=20 seems to<BR>> be the "solution" for artists offered up by=20 copyright-squashers).<BR>><BR>> But something I don't see = addressed...=20 in this "Internet-era" we see<BR>> many, many more artists that are = also=20 self-published. So, these<BR>> arguments and vilification of = "publishers"=20 and championing of artists<BR>> kinda breaks down in a world where = there=20 are a great many<BR>> self-published artists. In effect, you could=20 substitute artist for<BR>> publisher in many of this article's = statements=20 with the result being<BR>> an argument for stripping *artists* of = control=20 over their work and<BR>> their ability to derive income from it!=20 Yikes!<BR>><BR>> Explain to me this: in a world where copyright = is=20 abolished, how does<BR>> an author earn an income? Let's say Tom = the author=20 writes a book and<BR>> sells a copy to Bob. Bob works for Random = House. He=20 goes to work and<BR>> hands Random House Tom's book. He says, "I = wrote=20 this. Let's publish<BR>> it." Random House prints thousands of = copies and=20 with their marketing<BR>> strength drowns out any attempt by Tom to = promote=20 and sell his own<BR>> work. And without copyright, he has no = recourse=20 because Random House<BR>> has done nothing wrong ("information = wants to be=20 free, man...").<BR>><BR>> So, tell me, practically, given the = world we=20 live in today (or<BR>> tomorrow, or 10 years from now), how would a = creator=20 of IP earn a<BR>> living?<BR>><BR>> Troy.<BR></FONT></P> <P> <HR> = <P></P>------------------------------------------------------------------= -------<BR>This=20 SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft<BR>Defy all challenges. = Microsoft(R)=20 Visual Studio = 2008.<BR>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ <P> <HR> = <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Gamedevlists-ge= neral=20 mailing=20 = list<BR>[email protected]<BR>https://lists.sourc= eforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general<BR>Archives:<BR>http://sou= rceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557</LI></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY= ></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_00FB_01C8BFE4.881279A0-- --===============0815358626== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ --===============0815358626== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557 --===============0815358626==--