Re: Crazy Stone is playing on CGOS 9x9
David Wu <[email protected]> Fri, 8 May 2020 20:47:52 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.devel.go |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAGEydYta49s_jbXp+FTjfE+_kT564BRU-kKckKHqC-JhHzi-kg@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============1825641871555643237== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006181ff05a52c7725" --0000000000006181ff05a52c7725 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable kata-bot on OGS is intended for human players on OGS and is never guaranteed to be any particular version (certainly not an up-to-date version) nor have any specific fixed settings. You should generally not use it for testing - just download KataGo and run it yourself (in Lizzie, or Sabaki, or whatever) if you want reliable settings. The "aggressive" version that I mentioned in my last email is running on cgos, not on OGS. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 8:23 PM Kyle Biedermann <[email protected]> wrote: > Sounds fun and interesting experiment, I have noticed the increase in > preference to the 4-4 as of lately across the majority of AI. I still > prefer the 5-5 opening it seems to hold against Katago at the moment. May= be > i'll test out some things to see if it can find some interesting new move= s. > Is it still the Kata-bot account on OGS?. > > Kyle Biedermann > Creator of Deep Scholar > > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 3:28 PM David Wu <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I'm running a new account of KataGo that is set to bias towards >> aggressive or difficult moves now (the same way it does in 19x19 handica= p >> games), to see what the effect is. Although, it seems like some people h= ave >> stopped running their bots. Still maybe it will be interesting for the >> remaining players, or any others who decide to re-turn-on their bot for = a >> little while. :) >> >> It seems like some fraction of the time, it now opens on 5-5 as black, >> which is judged as worse than 4-4 in an even game, but presumably is mor= e >> difficult to play. I suspect it will now start to lose a noticeable numb= er >> of games now due to overplaying, and there's a good chance it does much >> worse overall. Even so, I'm curious what will happen, and what the draw >> rate will be. Suddenly having some 5-5 openings should certainly add som= e >> variety to the games. >> >> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:41 PM David Wu <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Having it matter which of the stones you capture there is fascinating. >>> Thanks for the analysis - and thanks for "organizing" this 9x9 testing >>> party. :) >>> >>> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:06 PM R=C3=A9mi Coulom <[email protected]= > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If White recaptures the Ko, then Black can play at White's 56, capture >>>> the stone, and win by 2 points. >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:02 PM Shawn Ligocki <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing the games, R=C3=A9mi! >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:27 AM R=C3=A9mi Coulom <[email protected]= m> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In this game, Crazy Stone won using a typical Monte Carlo trick: >>>>>> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?9x9/SGF/2020/05/07/997390.sgf >>>>>> On move 27, it sacrificed a stone. According to Crazy Stone, the gam= e >>>>>> would have been a draw had Aya just re-captured it. But Aya took the= bait >>>>>> and captured the other stone. Crazy Stone's evaluation became instan= tly >>>>>> winning after this, the sacrificed stone serving as a threat for the >>>>>> winning ko fight, 18 moves later. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wow, I did not imagine how that move would be useful later! But the >>>>> very end is confusing to my human brain, couldn't White move 56 retak= e the >>>>> ko and win it? It seems like Black only has one real ko threat left (= J4 >>>>> maybe). But White also has one huge threat left (D3), so it seems lik= e >>>>> White should win this ko and then be about 4 ahead with komi. Am I >>>>> missing something? >>>>> >>>>> -Shawn >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Computer-go mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Computer-go mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Computer-go mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go >> > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > [email protected] > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > --0000000000006181ff05a52c7725 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">kata-bot on OGS is intended for human players on OGS and i= s never guaranteed=C2=A0to be any particular version (certainly not an up-t= o-date version) nor have any specific fixed settings. You should generally = not use it for testing - just download KataGo and run it yourself (in Lizzi= e, or Sabaki, or whatever) if you want reliable settings.<div><br></div><di= v>The "aggressive" version that I mentioned in my last email is r= unning on cgos, not on OGS.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 8:23 PM Kyle Bieder= mann <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= om</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi= n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex= "><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sounds fun and interesting experiment, I have notic= ed the increase in preference to the 4-4 as of lately across the majority o= f AI. I still prefer the 5-5 opening it seems to hold against Katago at the= moment. Maybe i'll test out some things to see if it can find some int= eresting new moves. Is it still the Kata-bot account on OGS?.</div><div><br= ></div><div>Kyle Biedermann</div><div>Creator of Deep Scholar</div></div><b= r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, = May 8, 2020 at 3:28 PM David Wu <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= " target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquo= te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex= ;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr">I'm running a= new account of KataGo that is set to bias towards aggressive or difficult = moves now (the same way it does in 19x19 handicap games),=C2=A0to see what = the effect is. Although, it seems like some people have stopped running the= ir bots.=C2=A0 Still maybe it will be interesting for the remaining=C2=A0players, or any o= thers who decide to re-turn-on their bot for a little while. :)<div><br></d= iv><div>It seems like some fraction of the time, it now opens on 5-5 as bla= ck, which is judged as worse than 4-4 in an even game, but presumably is mo= re difficult to play. I suspect it will now start to lose a noticeable numb= er of games now due to overplaying,=C2=A0and there's a good chance it d= oes much worse overall. Even so, I'm curious what will happen, and what= the draw rate will be. Suddenly having some 5-5 openings should certainly = add some variety to the games.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d= iv class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:41 PM David W= u <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">lightvecto= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204= ,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr">Having it matter which of the stones you captur= e there is fascinating. Thanks for the analysis - and thanks for "orga= nizing" this 9x9 testing party. :)</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"= ><div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:06 PM R=C3= =A9mi Coulom <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"= >[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px so= lid rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr">If White recaptures the Ko, then Bla= ck can play at White's 56, capture the stone, and win by 2 points.<br><= /div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">O= n Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:02 PM Shawn Ligocki <<a href=3D"mailto:sligocki@= gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><bl= ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-le= ft:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D= "ltr">Thanks for sharing the games, R=C3=A9mi!</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></= div><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:27 AM R=C3=A9mi Coulom <<a= href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">remi.coulom@gmail.= com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D= "gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-lef= t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>In this game, Crazy Sto= ne won using a typical Monte Carlo trick:<br></div><div><a href=3D"http://w= ww.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?9x9/SGF/2020/05/07/997390.sgf" target=3D"_bl= ank">http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?9x9/SGF/2020/05/07/997390.sgf</= a></div><div></div><div>On move 27, it sacrificed a stone. According to Cra= zy Stone, the game would have been a draw had Aya just re-captured it. But = Aya took the bait and captured the other stone. Crazy Stone's evaluatio= n became instantly winning after this, the sacrificed stone serving as a th= reat for the winning ko fight, 18 moves later.</div></div></blockquote><div= ><br></div><div>Wow, I did not imagine how that move would be useful later!= But the very end is confusing to my human brain, couldn't White move 5= 6 retake the ko and win it? It seems like Black only has one real ko threat= left (J4 maybe). But White also has one huge threat left (D3), so it seems= like White should win this ko and then be about 4 ahead with komi. Am I mi= ssing=C2=A0something?</div><div><br></div><div>-Shawn</div></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Computer-go mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">Computer-g= [email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-= go</a><br> </blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Computer-go mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">Computer-g= [email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-= go</a><br> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Computer-go mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">Computer-g= [email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-= go</a><br> </blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Computer-go mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">Computer-g= [email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-= go</a><br> </blockquote></div> --0000000000006181ff05a52c7725-- --===============1825641871555643237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Computer-go mailing list [email protected] http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go --===============1825641871555643237==--