Re: Question about dealing with content creation for large worlds
Juan Linietsky <[email protected]> Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:35:34 -0300
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.devel.sweng |
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| Message-ID | <CAB2r+_sQbZ0Lw4sAr8FNdCHhx5mmBu1MnPJj5OCTXcZMV4NTNg@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============1597623857== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307d02aa1c7dc004cf46280c --20cf307d02aa1c7dc004cf46280c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Chad! Thanks for the answer! About memory, I believe streaming textures sort of gets rid of that problem. I did some experiments in modular design with decent results a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKmt1SfCTgM. This was really cool because i can use instancing for drawing the modules and performance was superb even on low end hardware. But I'm trying to experiment with less conventional looking buildings, as in, more artistic-like or mor apocalyptic. I guess it's in this case where environments become less modular and uv mapping of a huge scene becomes more difficult. As an example, imagine something like this: http://www.hdgamewallpaper.com/wallpapers/rage-city-1280x800.jpg , where no UVs are reused (ID's Rage) Or this, as something more artistic where artists paint directly over http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/200H/i/2012/167/8/a/town_from_the_dream___leonid_afremov_by_leonidafremov-d53ojlz.jpg I know carmack made a Tool for this, but it's a special tool that artists use for painting. For keeping draw calls low, i guess one could reduce far away octants to bigger-sized LODs or something like that. On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Eric Chadwick <[email protected]>wrote: > UV mapping buildings is not the bottleneck, in my experience. Keeping draw > calls within limits and keeping the memory from ballooning are the most > difficult parts. Having a clear idea how the buildings will be seen by the > player, and handled by the engine, are key determinants for how they should > be created by the artists. Do they need interiors? Does the player climb > them? Etc. > > Once that's clear, creating the actual content is fairly straightforward. > > Depending on the kind of game, buildings are often done in a modular > fashion. There's a nice visual breakdown here. > http://www.chrisalbeluhn.com/Building_Layout_Guideline_Tutorial.html > > Modular UVs are pretty well understood by artists these days, and the > tools are fairly robust. Maybe the artists you're working with aren't very > familiar with UV tools or process? > > This tutorial should help artists understand the UV process. > http://www.philipk.net/tutorials/modular_sets/modular_sets.html > > This one, although not free, is very good as well, and covers much more. > http://www.3dmotive.com/training/udk/modular-building-workflow/ > > We have a lot of articles here about modular workflow. This wiki has been > built for game artists in particular. > http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryEnvironmentModularity > > Hope this helps. > Eric > > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Juan Linietsky <[email protected]> wrote: > >> This is a semi on-top and semi-offtopic question. I can't find much >> information on creating pipelines for creating 3D content for large worlds. >> I'm finding that artists modelling the "shape" of such words (primitives) >> of cities, buildings or even natural places such as canyons or valleys is >> doen pretty quickly, they usually do it in a matter of days. Artists >> painting texturing and detail to them is also done quickly in nowadays >> tools, but the absolute bottleneck is UV mapping. >> The guys modeling take a long time uvmapping everything and artists are >> often not happy with the resulting UVs. Unwrapping architetural geometry in >> most 3D apps produces suboptimal results. There is also the problem of >> texture streaming, for which to achieve a good quality, textures should >> somehow be split evenly around world areas like quadrants or octants i >> think. >> >> I looked into Carmack's megatexturing approach, but it seems too >> unnecesarily complex IMO, plus there are no tools available that artists >> can use commercially? >> So, I'm looking at some intermediate step, where a tool, (or at least an >> algorithm), can take a giant world (like a city), untextured and either: >> a) Let artists paint directly on it (kind of like ptex?), then flatten >> and export to zoned models with textures and uvs. >> b) Just slice up the world in zones/octants, generate uniform uvs and >> export? >> >> In any case I'm really ignorant on how this works in large scale games, >> so hence my question. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Juan Linietsky >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sweng-Gamedev mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com > > --20cf307d02aa1c7dc004cf46280c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chad! Thanks for the answer!<div><br></div><div>About memory, I believe = streaming textures sort of gets rid of that problem. I did some experiments= in modular design with decent results a few years ago:=A0<a href=3D"http:/= /www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTKmt1SfCTgM">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTK= mt1SfCTgM</a>. This was really cool because i can use instancing for drawin= g the modules and performance was superb even on low end hardware.</div> <div><br></div><div>But I'm trying to experiment with less conventional= looking buildings, as in, more artistic-like or mor apocalyptic. I guess i= t's in this case where environments become less modular and uv mapping = of a huge scene becomes more difficult. As an example, imagine something li= ke this:</div> <div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.hdgamewallpaper.com/wallpapers/ra= ge-city-1280x800.jpg">http://www.hdgamewallpaper.com/wallpapers/rage-city-1= 280x800.jpg</a> =A0, where no UVs are reused (ID's Rage)</div><div><br> </div><div>Or this, as something more artistic where artists paint directly= over=A0</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://th01.deviantart.net/fs7= 1/200H/i/2012/167/8/a/town_from_the_dream___leonid_afremov_by_leonidafremov= -d53ojlz.jpg">http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/200H/i/2012/167/8/a/town_from= _the_dream___leonid_afremov_by_leonidafremov-d53ojlz.jpg</a></div> <div><br></div><div>I know carmack made a Tool for this, but it's a spe= cial tool that artists use for painting. For keeping draw calls low, i gues= s one could reduce far away octants to bigger-sized LODs or something like = that.</div> <div><br></div><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 24, 2012= at 7:52 PM, Eric Chadwick <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:er.cchad= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wro= te:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">UV mapping buildings is not the bottleneck, = in my experience. Keeping draw calls within limits and keeping the memory f= rom ballooning are the most difficult parts. Having a clear idea how the bu= ildings will be seen by the player, and handled by the engine, are key dete= rminants for how they should be created by the artists. Do they need interi= ors? Does the player climb them? Etc. <br> <br>Once that's clear, creating the actual content is fairly straightfo= rward. <br><br>Depending on the kind of game, buildings are often done in a= modular fashion. There's a nice visual breakdown here.<br><a href=3D"h= ttp://www.chrisalbeluhn.com/Building_Layout_Guideline_Tutorial.html" target= =3D"_blank">http://www.chrisalbeluhn.com/Building_Layout_Guideline_Tutorial= .html</a><br> <br>Modular UVs are pretty well understood by artists these days, and the= =20 tools are fairly robust. Maybe the artists you're working with aren'= ;t=20 very familiar with UV tools or process?<br><br>This tutorial should help ar= tists understand the UV process.<br><a href=3D"http://www.philipk.net/tutor= ials/modular_sets/modular_sets.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.philipk.n= et/tutorials/modular_sets/modular_sets.html</a><br> <br>This one, although not free, is very good as well, and covers much more= .<br><a href=3D"http://www.3dmotive.com/training/udk/modular-building-workf= low/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.3dmotive.com/training/udk/modular-buildi= ng-workflow/</a><br> <br>We have a lot of articles here about modular workflow. This wiki has be= en built for game artists in particular.<br><a href=3D"http://wiki.polycoun= t.com/CategoryEnvironmentModularity" target=3D"_blank">http://wiki.polycoun= t.com/CategoryEnvironmentModularity</a><br> <br>Hope this helps.<br>Eric<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:50 PM, = Juan Linietsky <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" t= arget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br> </div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo= rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5">This is a= semi on-top and semi-offtopic question. I can't find much information = on creating pipelines for creating 3D content for large worlds.<div> I'm finding that artists modelling the "shape" of such words = (primitives) of cities, buildings or even natural places such as canyons or= valleys is doen pretty quickly, they usually do it in a matter of days. Ar= tists painting texturing and detail to them is also done quickly in nowaday= s tools, but the absolute bottleneck is UV mapping.=A0</div> <div>The guys modeling take a long time uvmapping everything and artists ar= e often not happy with the resulting UVs. Unwrapping architetural geometry = in most 3D apps produces suboptimal results. There is also the problem of t= exture streaming, for which to achieve a good quality, textures should some= how be split=A0evenly around world areas like quadrants or octants i think.= </div> <div><br></div><div>I looked into Carmack's megatexturing approach, but= it seems too unnecesarily complex IMO, plus there are no tools available t= hat artists can use commercially?</div><div>So, I'm looking at some int= ermediate step, where a tool, (or at least an algorithm), =A0can take a gia= nt world (like a city), untextured and either:</div> <div>a) Let artists paint directly on it (kind of like ptex?), then flatten= and export to zoned models with textures and uvs.</div><div>b) Just slice = up the world in zones/octants, generate uniform uvs and export?</div><div> <br></div><div>In any case I'm really ignorant on how this works in lar= ge scale games, so hence my question.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div= ><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Juan Linietsky</div> <div><br></div><div><br></div> <div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div> </font></span><br></div></div>_____________________________________________= __<br> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">= [email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnig= htryder.com" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/= sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br></div> <br>_______________________________________________<br> Sweng-Gamedev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Sweng-Gamedev@list= s.midnightryder.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnig= htryder.com" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/= sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br></div> --20cf307d02aa1c7dc004cf46280c-- --===============1597623857== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sweng-Gamedev mailing list [email protected] http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com --===============1597623857==--