Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"Former Trout" <[email protected]> Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:33:06 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--kaQInhgMX-jnVXihdd0GOL3RPCOlfabFtOdJhBx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Peter & Roy, I definitely appreciate it... The follow-up question being whether the player is correct in stating that player intent should trump the written orders. I know that isn't the way my house rules are currently written - but I wouldn't mind hearing what the general consensus out there is. Should a GM hold player intent at a higher consideration than actual order submittal? Trout On 7/12/07, Peter J Richardson <[email protected]> wrote: > > I have two thoughts on this: > > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to the > players before they agreed to play in the > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint. > > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be shot > at. My advice is to make players entirely > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for > the consequences when orders are unclear or > mistaken. > > Regards > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Former Trout" <[email protected] <former.trout%40gmail.com>> > To: <[email protected] <Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > > Hi folks, > > > > A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a > ruling > > based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my > > ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here. > > > > My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the > game > > for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about > > this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it. > > > > The House rule in particular: > > > > IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders: > > (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the > type > > of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not invalidate > the > > order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will > > invalidate the order. > > > > The situation: > > A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET > English > > Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows: > > > > England: > > A Wales -> London > > Germany: > > F English Channel -> London > > > > My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and > Germany > > succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build. > > > > The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent of > the > > order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over > written > > orders. Two other factors color his argument: > > > > 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player > > orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if time > > remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not > catch > > all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for > their > > own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way through > > the adjudication. > > > > 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit and > > character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion, > choose > > to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is > > unsatisfactory. > > > > The player in question claims that his strategy and position are > > detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a > review > > performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and > that > > this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not > disagree > > that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his > > argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair. > > > > I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My > > apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this > matter. > > > > Thanks all, very much, > > > > Trout > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Community email addresses: > > Post message: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40onelist.com> > > Subscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com> > > Unsubscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com> > > List owner: [email protected] <CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com> > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --kaQInhgMX-jnVXihdd0GOL3RPCOlfabFtOdJhBx Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>Thanks Peter & Roy, I definitely appreciate it...<br> <br> The follow-up question being whether the player is correct in stating that<br> player intent should trump the written orders. I know that isn't the way my<br> house rules are currently written - but I wouldn't mind hearing what the<br> general consensus out there is.<br> <br> Should a GM hold player intent at a higher consideration than actual order<br> submittal?<br> <br> Trout<br> <br> On 7/12/07, Peter J Richardson <<a href="mailto:pjrich.1962%40googlemail.com">pjrich.1962@<wbr>googlemail.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > I have two thoughts on this:<br> ><br> > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to the<br> > players before they agreed to play in the<br> > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint.<br> ><br> > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to<br> > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you<br> > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be shot<br> > at. My advice is to make players entirely<br> > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for<br> > the consequences when orders are unclear or<br> > mistaken.<br> ><br> > Regards<br> > Peter<br> ><br> > ----- Original Message -----<br> > From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a> <former.trout%<wbr>40gmail.com><wbr>><br> > To: <<a href="mailto:Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <Cat23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><wbr>><br> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM<br> > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> ><br> > > Hi folks,<br> > ><br> > > A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a<br> > ruling<br> > > based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my<br> > > ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here.<br> > ><br> > > My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the<br> > game<br> > > for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about<br> > > this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it.<br> > ><br> > > The House rule in particular:<br> > ><br> > > IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders:<br> > > (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the<br> > type<br> > > of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not invalidate<br> > the<br> > > order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will<br> > > invalidate the order.<br> > ><br> > > The situation:<br> > > A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET<br> > English<br> > > Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows:<br> > ><br> > > England:<br> > > A Wales -> London<br> > > Germany:<br> > > F English Channel -> London<br> > ><br> > > My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and<br> > Germany<br> > > succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build.<br> > ><br> > > The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent of<br> > the<br> > > order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over<br> > written<br> > > orders. Two other factors color his argument:<br> > ><br> > > 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player<br> > > orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if time<br> > > remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not<br> > catch<br> > > all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for<br> > their<br> > > own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way through<br> > > the adjudication.<br> > ><br> > > 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit and<br> > > character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion,<br> > choose<br> > > to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is<br> > > unsatisfactory.<br> > ><br> > > The player in question claims that his strategy and position are<br> > > detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a<br> > review<br> > > performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and<br> > that<br> > > this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not<br> > disagree<br> > > that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his<br> > > argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair.<br> > ><br> > > I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My<br> > > apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this<br> > matter.<br> > ><br> > > Thanks all, very much,<br> > ><br> > > Trout<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > > Community email addresses:<br> > > Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <CAT23-GM%40onelist<wbr>.com><br> > > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><CAT23-GM-subscribe<wbr>%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > > Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><CAT23-GM-unsubscri<wbr>be%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > > List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a> <CAT23-GM-owner%<wbr>40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > ><br> > > Shortcut URL to this page:<br> > > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> > > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> ><br> > <br> ><br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/message/5546;_ylc=X3oDMTMzdTAxdGI0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU0OQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODMxODkEdHBjSWQDNTU0Ng--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvYmdwdWZmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU0OQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExODQyODMxODk-?act=reply&messageNum=5549"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkazJndWZ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjgzMTg5" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkanBudm4xBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjgzMTg5">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYTkxM2w1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4MzE4OQ--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkaW84dnYyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTg0MjgzMTg5">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZ2xiZWQ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4MzE4OQ--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJiZDh2NDAyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4MzE4OQ--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcTU4c24xBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4MzE4OQ--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNHZpdHE5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjgzMTg5">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNWE2cDF2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODMxODk-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- Do not have place to put it yet --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjOTBjMjE0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODMxODk-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! 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