Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"David E. Cohen" <[email protected]> Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:40:49 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <003701c7c4de$15cb5760$6701a8c0@Dell> |
--bGvCrk-mET3Q-W1Qe9HSUI1i4EuF2B4IYEUnfWV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As is often the case, I am in agreement with Peter here, on both points. The only way I would be proofing orders is if it was a newbie-only game. P.S. Nice house rules. :^) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter J Richardson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions >I have two thoughts on this: > > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to the > players before they agreed to play in the > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint. > > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be shot > at. My advice is to make players entirely > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for > the consequences when orders are unclear or > mistaken. > > Regards > Peter > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Former Trout" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > >> Hi folks, >> >> A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a >> ruling >> based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my >> ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here. >> >> My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the game >> for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about >> this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it. >> >> The House rule in particular: >> >> IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders: >> (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the >> type >> of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not invalidate >> the >> order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will >> invalidate the order. >> >> The situation: >> A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET >> English >> Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows: >> >> England: >> A Wales -> London >> Germany: >> F English Channel -> London >> >> My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and >> Germany >> succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build. >> >> The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent of >> the >> order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over >> written >> orders. Two other factors color his argument: >> >> 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player >> orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if time >> remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not >> catch >> all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for >> their >> own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way through >> the adjudication. >> >> 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit and >> character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion, >> choose >> to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is >> unsatisfactory. >> >> The player in question claims that his strategy and position are >> detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a review >> performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and >> that >> this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not >> disagree >> that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his >> argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair. >> >> I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My >> apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this >> matter. >> >> Thanks all, very much, >> >> Trout --bGvCrk-mET3Q-W1Qe9HSUI1i4EuF2B4IYEUnfWV Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>As is often the case, I am in agreement with Peter here, on both points. <br> The only way I would be proofing orders is if it was a newbie-only game.<br> <br> P.S. Nice house rules. :^)<br> <br> ----- Original Message ----- <br> From: "Peter J Richardson" <<a href="mailto:pjrich.1962%40googlemail.com">pjrich.1962@<wbr>googlemail.<wbr>com</a>><br> To: <<a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>><br> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:59 PM<br> Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> <br> >I have two thoughts on this:<br> ><br> > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to the <br> > players before they agreed to play in the<br> > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint.<br> ><br> > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to <br> > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you<br> > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be shot <br> > at. My advice is to make players entirely<br> > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for <br> > the consequences when orders are unclear or<br> > mistaken.<br> ><br> > Regards<br> > Peter<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > ----- Original Message -----<br> > From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br> > To: <<a href="mailto:Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>><br> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM<br> > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> ><br> ><br> >> Hi folks,<br> >><br> >> A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a <br> >> ruling<br> >> based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my<br> >> ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here.<br> >><br> >> My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the game<br> >> for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about<br> >> this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it.<br> >><br> >> The House rule in particular:<br> >><br> >> IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders:<br> >> (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the <br> >> type<br> >> of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not invalidate <br> >> the<br> >> order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will<br> >> invalidate the order.<br> >><br> >> The situation:<br> >> A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET <br> >> English<br> >> Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows:<br> >><br> >> England:<br> >> A Wales -> London<br> >> Germany:<br> >> F English Channel -> London<br> >><br> >> My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and <br> >> Germany<br> >> succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build.<br> >><br> >> The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent of <br> >> the<br> >> order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over <br> >> written<br> >> orders. Two other factors color his argument:<br> >><br> >> 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player<br> >> orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if time<br> >> remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not <br> >> catch<br> >> all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for <br> >> their<br> >> own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way through<br> >> the adjudication.<br> >><br> >> 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit and<br> >> character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion, <br> >> choose<br> >> to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is<br> >> unsatisfactory.<br> >><br> >> The player in question claims that his strategy and position are<br> >> detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a review<br> >> performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and <br> >> that<br> >> this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not <br> >> disagree<br> >> that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his<br> >> argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair.<br> >><br> >> I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My<br> >> apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this <br> >> matter.<br> >><br> >> Thanks all, very much,<br> >><br> >> Trout <br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/message/5546;_ylc=X3oDMTMzbWMyZ2MzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODM3NDgEdHBjSWQDNTU0Ng--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvZWoxdWIyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExODQyODM3NDg-?act=reply&messageNum=5550"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkY2hqajB0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjgzNzQ4" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdjV2cTJuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjgzNzQ4">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcDU2aWJhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4Mzc0OA--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQ2N2cyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTg0MjgzNzQ4">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMnZkODQ3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4Mzc0OA--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJib3BzcDZnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4Mzc0OA--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2lvYWhuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4Mzc0OA--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYTJ1YWI2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjgzNzQ4">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjaTcxcnNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODM3NDg-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- Do not have place to put it yet --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjOGxhMG40BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODM3NDg-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! 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