Re: [SPAM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"David E. Cohen" <[email protected]> Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:44:41 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
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| Message-ID | <007101c7c4de$9e3e1100$6701a8c0@Dell> |
--daD-a7hm6Bkon6cis9lNaFoZd7lteJXBv9Vrhr2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No one knows what the player's intent is, other than the player. I am not saying that this particular player would do such a thing, but if you allow intent to color matters, then the player could claim whichever was better (an intentional misorder or a slightly garbled, but legal order) depending on what suited his needs, after having seen the other players' moves. You don't want to get into that! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Former Trout" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:33 PM Subject: [SPAM] Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > Thanks Peter & Roy, I definitely appreciate it... > > The follow-up question being whether the player is correct in stating that > player intent should trump the written orders. I know that isn't the way > my > house rules are currently written - but I wouldn't mind hearing what the > general consensus out there is. > > Should a GM hold player intent at a higher consideration than actual order > submittal? > > Trout > > On 7/12/07, Peter J Richardson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I have two thoughts on this: >> >> 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to the >> players before they agreed to play in the >> game then they have no valid grounds for complaint. >> >> 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to >> adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you >> fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be shot >> at. My advice is to make players entirely >> responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for >> the consequences when orders are unclear or >> mistaken. >> >> Regards >> Peter >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Former Trout" <[email protected] <former.trout%40gmail.com>> >> To: <[email protected] <Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM >> Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions >> >> > Hi folks, >> > >> > A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a >> ruling >> > based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my >> > ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here. >> > >> > My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the >> game >> > for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about >> > this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it. >> > >> > The House rule in particular: >> > >> > IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders: >> > (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the >> type >> > of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not >> > invalidate >> the >> > order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will >> > invalidate the order. >> > >> > The situation: >> > A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET >> English >> > Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows: >> > >> > England: >> > A Wales -> London >> > Germany: >> > F English Channel -> London >> > >> > My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and >> Germany >> > succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build. >> > >> > The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent >> > of >> the >> > order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over >> written >> > orders. Two other factors color his argument: >> > >> > 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player >> > orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if >> > time >> > remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not >> catch >> > all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for >> their >> > own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way >> > through >> > the adjudication. >> > >> > 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit >> > and >> > character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion, >> choose >> > to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is >> > unsatisfactory. >> > >> > The player in question claims that his strategy and position are >> > detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a >> review >> > performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and >> that >> > this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not >> disagree >> > that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his >> > argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair. >> > >> > I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My >> > apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this >> matter. >> > >> > Thanks all, very much, >> > >> > Trout >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > Community email addresses: >> > Post message: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40onelist.com> >> > Subscribe: >> > [email protected]<CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com> >> > Unsubscribe: >> > [email protected]<CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com> >> > List owner: [email protected] <CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com> >> > >> > Shortcut URL to this page: >> > http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > --daD-a7hm6Bkon6cis9lNaFoZd7lteJXBv9Vrhr2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>No one knows what the player's intent is, other than the player. I am not <br> saying that this particular player would do such a thing, but if you allow <br> intent to color matters, then the player could claim whichever was better <br> (an intentional misorder or a slightly garbled, but legal order) depending <br> on what suited his needs, after having seen the other players' moves. You <br> don't want to get into that!<br> <br> ----- Original Message ----- <br> From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br> To: <<a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>><br> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:33 PM<br> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> <br> > Thanks Peter & Roy, I definitely appreciate it...<br> ><br> > The follow-up question being whether the player is correct in stating that<br> > player intent should trump the written orders. I know that isn't the way <br> > my<br> > house rules are currently written - but I wouldn't mind hearing what the<br> > general consensus out there is.<br> ><br> > Should a GM hold player intent at a higher consideration than actual order<br> > submittal?<br> ><br> > Trout<br> ><br> > On 7/12/07, Peter J Richardson <<a href="mailto:pjrich.1962%40googlemail.com">pjrich.1962@<wbr>googlemail.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:<br> >><br> >> I have two thoughts on this:<br> >><br> >> 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to the<br> >> players before they agreed to play in the<br> >> game then they have no valid grounds for complaint.<br> >><br> >> 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to<br> >> adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you<br> >> fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be shot<br> >> at. My advice is to make players entirely<br> >> responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for<br> >> the consequences when orders are unclear or<br> >> mistaken.<br> >><br> >> Regards<br> >> Peter<br> >><br> >> ----- Original Message -----<br> >> From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a> <former.trout%<wbr>40gmail.com><wbr>><br> >> To: <<a href="mailto:Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <Cat23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><wbr>><br> >> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM<br> >> Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> >><br> >> > Hi folks,<br> >> ><br> >> > A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a<br> >> ruling<br> >> > based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my<br> >> > ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here.<br> >> ><br> >> > My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the<br> >> game<br> >> > for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about<br> >> > this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it.<br> >> ><br> >> > The House rule in particular:<br> >> ><br> >> > IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders:<br> >> > (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the<br> >> type<br> >> > of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not <br> >> > invalidate<br> >> the<br> >> > order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will<br> >> > invalidate the order.<br> >> ><br> >> > The situation:<br> >> > A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET<br> >> English<br> >> > Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows:<br> >> ><br> >> > England:<br> >> > A Wales -> London<br> >> > Germany:<br> >> > F English Channel -> London<br> >> ><br> >> > My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and<br> >> Germany<br> >> > succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build.<br> >> ><br> >> > The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent <br> >> > of<br> >> the<br> >> > order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over<br> >> written<br> >> > orders. Two other factors color his argument:<br> >> ><br> >> > 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player<br> >> > orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if <br> >> > time<br> >> > remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not<br> >> catch<br> >> > all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for<br> >> their<br> >> > own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way <br> >> > through<br> >> > the adjudication.<br> >> ><br> >> > 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit <br> >> > and<br> >> > character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion,<br> >> choose<br> >> > to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is<br> >> > unsatisfactory.<br> >> ><br> >> > The player in question claims that his strategy and position are<br> >> > detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a<br> >> review<br> >> > performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and<br> >> that<br> >> > this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not<br> >> disagree<br> >> > that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his<br> >> > argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair.<br> >> ><br> >> > I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My<br> >> > apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this<br> >> matter.<br> >> ><br> >> > Thanks all, very much,<br> >> ><br> >> > Trout<br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >> > Community email addresses:<br> >> > Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <CAT23-GM%40onelist<wbr>.com><br> >> > Subscribe: <br> >> > <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><CAT23-GM-subscribe<wbr>%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >> > Unsubscribe: <br> >> > <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><CAT23-GM-unsubscri<wbr>be%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >> > List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a> <CAT23-GM-owner%<wbr>40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >> ><br> >> > Shortcut URL to this page:<br> >> > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >><br> >><br> >><br> ><br> ><br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> ><br> > <br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/message/5551;_ylc=X3oDMTMzaXJqcmN1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1MQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQxMTQEdHBjSWQDNTU1MQ--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">1</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvbHExNHAwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1MQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQxMTQ-?act=reply&messageNum=5551"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbm1hdjllBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MTE0" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdnYzdWZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MTE0">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY3RycG4zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDExNA--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYmk5YmVwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MTE0">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZ2hwbHVnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDExNA--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJibXF1aHJxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDExNA--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaW1tZ2lmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDExNA--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZzZxb2lvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MTE0">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjYmNqcjBzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQxMTQ-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- Do not have place to put it yet --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjcHJ2ZjNoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQxMTQ-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! 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