Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"Former Trout" <[email protected]> Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:49:08 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--9BB5vx4RVQ-wHuXxoSILm9l4HPWWS2NSmCru0cE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah - actually, the line right underneath the title reads 'Being a blatant rip-off of David Cohen's model house rules...' Thought you might recognize them. =) Trout On 7/12/07, David E. Cohen <[email protected]> wrote: > > As is often the case, I am in agreement with Peter here, on both points. > > The only way I would be proofing orders is if it was a newbie-only game. > > P.S. Nice house rules. :^) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter J Richardson" <[email protected]<pjrich.1962%40googlemail.com> > > > To: <[email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:59 PM > Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > >I have two thoughts on this: > > > > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to > the > > players before they agreed to play in the > > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint. > > > > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to > > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you > > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be > shot > > at. My advice is to make players entirely > > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for > > the consequences when orders are unclear or > > mistaken. > > > > Regards > > Peter > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Former Trout" <[email protected] <former.trout%40gmail.com>> > > To: <[email protected] <Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM > > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > > > > >> Hi folks, > >> > >> A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a > >> ruling > >> based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my > >> ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here. > >> > >> My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the > game > >> for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about > >> this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it. > >> > >> The House rule in particular: > >> > >> IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders: > >> (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the > >> type > >> of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not > invalidate > >> the > >> order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will > >> invalidate the order. > >> > >> The situation: > >> A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET > >> English > >> Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows: > >> > >> England: > >> A Wales -> London > >> Germany: > >> F English Channel -> London > >> > >> My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and > >> Germany > >> succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build. > >> > >> The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent > of > >> the > >> order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over > >> written > >> orders. Two other factors color his argument: > >> > >> 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player > >> orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if > time > >> remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not > >> catch > >> all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for > >> their > >> own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way > through > >> the adjudication. > >> > >> 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit > and > >> character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion, > >> choose > >> to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is > >> unsatisfactory. > >> > >> The player in question claims that his strategy and position are > >> detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a > review > >> performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and > >> that > >> this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not > >> disagree > >> that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his > >> argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair. > >> > >> I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My > >> apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this > >> matter. > >> > >> Thanks all, very much, > >> > >> Trout > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --9BB5vx4RVQ-wHuXxoSILm9l4HPWWS2NSmCru0cE Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>Yeah - actually, the line right underneath the title reads 'Being a blatant<br> rip-off of David Cohen's model house rules...'<br> <br> Thought you might recognize them. =)<br> <br> Trout<br> <br> On 7/12/07, David E. Cohen <<a href="mailto:zendip18%40optonline.net">zendip18@optonline.<wbr>net</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > As is often the case, I am in agreement with Peter here, on both points.<br> ><br> > The only way I would be proofing orders is if it was a newbie-only game.<br> ><br> > P.S. Nice house rules. :^)<br> ><br> ><br> > ----- Original Message -----<br> > From: "Peter J Richardson" <<a href="mailto:pjrich.1962%40googlemail.com">pjrich.1962@<wbr>googlemail.<wbr>com</a><pjrich.1962%<wbr>40googlemail.<wbr>com><br> > ><br> > To: <<a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><wbr>><br> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:59 PM<br> > Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> ><br> > >I have two thoughts on this:<br> > ><br> > > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to<br> > the<br> > > players before they agreed to play in the<br> > > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint.<br> > ><br> > > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to<br> > > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you<br> > > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be<br> > shot<br> > > at. My advice is to make players entirely<br> > > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for<br> > > the consequences when orders are unclear or<br> > > mistaken.<br> > ><br> > > Regards<br> > > Peter<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > > ----- Original Message -----<br> > > From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a> <former.trout%<wbr>40gmail.com><wbr>><br> > > To: <<a href="mailto:Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <Cat23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><wbr>><br> > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM<br> > > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> > ><br> > ><br> > >> Hi folks,<br> > >><br> > >> A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a<br> > >> ruling<br> > >> based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my<br> > >> ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here.<br> > >><br> > >> My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the<br> > game<br> > >> for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about<br> > >> this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it.<br> > >><br> > >> The House rule in particular:<br> > >><br> > >> IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders:<br> > >> (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the<br> > >> type<br> > >> of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not<br> > invalidate<br> > >> the<br> > >> order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will<br> > >> invalidate the order.<br> > >><br> > >> The situation:<br> > >> A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET<br> > >> English<br> > >> Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows:<br> > >><br> > >> England:<br> > >> A Wales -> London<br> > >> Germany:<br> > >> F English Channel -> London<br> > >><br> > >> My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and<br> > >> Germany<br> > >> succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build.<br> > >><br> > >> The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent<br> > of<br> > >> the<br> > >> order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over<br> > >> written<br> > >> orders. Two other factors color his argument:<br> > >><br> > >> 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player<br> > >> orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if<br> > time<br> > >> remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not<br> > >> catch<br> > >> all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for<br> > >> their<br> > >> own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way<br> > through<br> > >> the adjudication.<br> > >><br> > >> 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit<br> > and<br> > >> character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion,<br> > >> choose<br> > >> to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is<br> > >> unsatisfactory.<br> > >><br> > >> The player in question claims that his strategy and position are<br> > >> detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a<br> > review<br> > >> performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and<br> > >> that<br> > >> this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not<br> > >> disagree<br> > >> that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his<br> > >> argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair.<br> > >><br> > >> I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My<br> > >> apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this<br> > >> matter.<br> > >><br> > >> Thanks all, very much,<br> > >><br> > >> Trout<br> ><br> > <br> ><br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/message/5546;_ylc=X3oDMTMzZmwzbTI4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQyNjcEdHBjSWQDNTU0Ng--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvZGFxaXBlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQyNjc-?act=reply&messageNum=5552"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkczE2ZGFpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MjY3" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdW52OTRiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MjY3">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYzVwMGhwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2Nw--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkb2c2OTZuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MjY3">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcTMzMGd2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2Nw--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJibzg5YjBiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2Nw--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZDFrdW85BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2Nw--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbjRndG9uBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MjY3">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjMHNuaWZoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQyNjc-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- Do not have place to put it yet --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjb212YzEwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQyNjc-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZGUwdWRiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDc3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2Nw--">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br> Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNmZmZWYyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDaHBmBHN0aW1lAzExODQyODQyNjc-"> Visit Your Group </a> | <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"> Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject="> Unsubscribe </a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;"> <!-- Network content --> <!-- Start vitality --> <div id="ygrp-vital"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM;_ylc=X3oDMTJkajJwOGxjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxMTg0Mjg0MjY3"> Visit Your Group </a> </div> <div id="hd">SPONSORED LINKS</div> <div id="ov"> <ul> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiMG1zYm83BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2OA--?t=ms&k=Computer+role+playing+game&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=7agTNLWYkq5ObrM_HxMI9g">Computer role playing game</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiZ2UyNGRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2OA--?t=ms&k=Free+online+role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=4QpHlVvE7Ux1Po9XJHI3Mw">Free online role playing games</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJibXE4Zmo2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2OA--?t=ms&k=Diplomacy+game&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=o0Wl2D10ICbvYeRsM70Zvg">Diplomacy game</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJidXNrZzFqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2OA--?t=ms&k=Online+role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=W1gqeu5BSpDhAVOPii3JUQ">Online role playing games</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiZDhlY282BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI4NDI2OA--?t=ms&k=Role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=XP57S-KjFJ8G03Tn-gmSJQ">Role playing games</a></li> </ul> </div> <!-- Network content --> <div id="nc"> <div class="ad"> <div id="hd1">Yahoo! Movies</div> <p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jgs4ke9/M=493064.10729667.11333358.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184291468/A=3848593/R=0/SIG=11i0d4v58/*http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/thisweekend.html">Up for a movie?</a></p> <p>Check out the</p> <p>new releases.</p> </div> <div class="ad"> <div id="hd1">Yahoo! News</div> <p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j0cb5fg/M=493064.10729659.11333350.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184291468/A=3848607/R=0/SIG=10q7s9jm5/*http://hotzone.yahoo.com">Kevin Sites</a></p> <p>Get coverage of</p> <p>world crises.</p> </div> <div class="ad"> <div id="hd1">Yahoo! Avatars</div> <p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jiod9qs/M=493064.10729655.11333346.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184291468/A=3848519/R=0/SIG=10qidb854/*http://avatars.yahoo.com">Make a Virtual You</a></p> <p>Show your style &</p> <p>mood in Messenger.</p> </div> </div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=360269/grpspId=1705057147/msgId=5552/stime=1184284267/nc1=3848593/nc2=3848607/nc3=3848519" width="1" height="1"> <br> <span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </body> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <head> <style type="text/css"> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family: Arial; clear: both; } #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 77%; margin: 0; } #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding: 0 1px; } #ygrp-actbar{ clear: both; margin: 25px 0; white-space:nowrap; color: #666; text-align: right; } #ygrp-actbar .left{ float: left; white-space:nowrap; } .bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family: Verdana; font-size: 77%; padding: 15px 0; } #ygrp-ft{ font-family: verdana; font-size: 77%; border-top: 1px solid #666; padding: 5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-vital{ background-color: #e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 2px 0 8px 8px; } #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size: 77%; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; } #ygrp-vital ul{ padding: 0; margin: 2px 0; } #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type: none; clear: both; border: 1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight: bold; color: #ff7900; float: right; width: 2em; text-align:right; padding-right: .5em; } #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight: bold; } #ygrp-vital a { text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration: underline; } #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color: #999; font-size: 77%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding: 6px 13px; background-color: #e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding: 0 0 0 8px; margin: 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; font-size: 77%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration: none; font-size: 130%; } #ygrp-sponsor #nc { background-color: #eee; margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0 8px; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding: 8px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: #628c2a; font-size: 100%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration: underline; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin: 0; } o {font-size: 0; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } #ygrp-text tt{ font-size: 120%; } blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;} .replbq {margin:4} --> </style> </head> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </html><!--End group email --> --9BB5vx4RVQ-wHuXxoSILm9l4HPWWS2NSmCru0cE--