Re: [SPAM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"David E. Cohen" <[email protected]> Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:15:49 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <002c01c7c4f3$bbd7d650$6701a8c0@Dell> |
--0-YvrmvkrtxTqmNYtRHPtOtgsojlDUy6rgNazYw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the Model House Rules are meant to be used, as a *model*, by definition, no one can rip them off. P.S. They really aren't mine, except in a partial sense, in that I am the Editor and one out of two or three dozen contributors. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Former Trout" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:49 PM Subject: [SPAM] Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > Yeah - actually, the line right underneath the title reads 'Being a > blatant > rip-off of David Cohen's model house rules...' > > Thought you might recognize them. =) > > Trout > > On 7/12/07, David E. Cohen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> As is often the case, I am in agreement with Peter here, on both >> points. >> >> The only way I would be proofing orders is if it was a newbie-only game. >> >> P.S. Nice house rules. :^) >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Peter J Richardson" >> <[email protected]<pjrich.1962%40googlemail.com> >> > >> To: <[email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions >> >> >I have two thoughts on this: >> > >> > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to >> the >> > players before they agreed to play in the >> > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint. >> > >> > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to >> > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you >> > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be >> shot >> > at. My advice is to make players entirely >> > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for >> > the consequences when orders are unclear or >> > mistaken. >> > >> > Regards >> > Peter >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Former Trout" <[email protected] >> > <former.trout%40gmail.com>> >> > To: <[email protected] <Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com>> >> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM >> > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions >> > >> > >> >> Hi folks, >> >> >> >> A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a >> >> ruling >> >> based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on >> >> my >> >> ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here. >> >> >> >> My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the >> game >> >> for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made >> >> about >> >> this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it. >> >> >> >> The House rule in particular: >> >> >> >> IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders: >> >> (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the >> >> type >> >> of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not >> invalidate >> >> the >> >> order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will >> >> invalidate the order. >> >> >> >> The situation: >> >> A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET >> >> English >> >> Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows: >> >> >> >> England: >> >> A Wales -> London >> >> Germany: >> >> F English Channel -> London >> >> >> >> My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and >> >> Germany >> >> succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build. >> >> >> >> The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent >> of >> >> the >> >> order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over >> >> written >> >> orders. Two other factors color his argument: >> >> >> >> 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player >> >> orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if >> time >> >> remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not >> >> catch >> >> all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for >> >> their >> >> own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way >> through >> >> the adjudication. >> >> >> >> 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit >> and >> >> character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion, >> >> choose >> >> to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is >> >> unsatisfactory. >> >> >> >> The player in question claims that his strategy and position are >> >> detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a >> review >> >> performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and >> >> that >> >> this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not >> >> disagree >> >> that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his >> >> argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair. >> >> >> >> I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My >> >> apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this >> >> matter. >> >> >> >> Thanks all, very much, >> >> >> >> Trout >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > --0-YvrmvkrtxTqmNYtRHPtOtgsojlDUy6rgNazYw Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>Since the Model House Rules are meant to be used, as a *model*, by <br> definition, no one can rip them off.<br> <br> P.S. They really aren't mine, except in a partial sense, in that I am the <br> Editor and one out of two or three dozen contributors.<br> <br> ----- Original Message ----- <br> From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br> To: <<a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>><br> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:49 PM<br> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> <br> > Yeah - actually, the line right underneath the title reads 'Being a <br> > blatant<br> > rip-off of David Cohen's model house rules...'<br> ><br> > Thought you might recognize them. =)<br> ><br> > Trout<br> ><br> > On 7/12/07, David E. Cohen <<a href="mailto:zendip18%40optonline.net">zendip18@optonline.<wbr>net</a>> wrote:<br> >><br> >> As is often the case, I am in agreement with Peter here, on both <br> >> points.<br> >><br> >> The only way I would be proofing orders is if it was a newbie-only game.<br> >><br> >> P.S. Nice house rules. :^)<br> >><br> >><br> >> ----- Original Message -----<br> >> From: "Peter J Richardson" <br> >> <<a href="mailto:pjrich.1962%40googlemail.com">pjrich.1962@<wbr>googlemail.<wbr>com</a><pjrich.1962%<wbr>40googlemail.<wbr>com><br> >> ><br> >> To: <<a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><wbr>><br> >> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:59 PM<br> >> Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> >><br> >> >I have two thoughts on this:<br> >> ><br> >> > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to<br> >> the<br> >> > players before they agreed to play in the<br> >> > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint.<br> >> ><br> >> > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to<br> >> > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you<br> >> > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be<br> >> shot<br> >> > at. My advice is to make players entirely<br> >> > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for<br> >> > the consequences when orders are unclear or<br> >> > mistaken.<br> >> ><br> >> > Regards<br> >> > Peter<br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >> > ----- Original Message -----<br> >> > From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a> <br> >> > <former.trout%<wbr>40gmail.com><wbr>><br> >> > To: <<a href="mailto:Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <Cat23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><wbr>><br> >> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM<br> >> > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> >> ><br> >> ><br> >> >> Hi folks,<br> >> >><br> >> >> A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a<br> >> >> ruling<br> >> >> based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on <br> >> >> my<br> >> >> ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here.<br> >> >><br> >> >> My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the<br> >> game<br> >> >> for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made <br> >> >> about<br> >> >> this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it.<br> >> >><br> >> >> The House rule in particular:<br> >> >><br> >> >> IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders:<br> >> >> (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the<br> >> >> type<br> >> >> of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not<br> >> invalidate<br> >> >> the<br> >> >> order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will<br> >> >> invalidate the order.<br> >> >><br> >> >> The situation:<br> >> >> A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET<br> >> >> English<br> >> >> Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows:<br> >> >><br> >> >> England:<br> >> >> A Wales -> London<br> >> >> Germany:<br> >> >> F English Channel -> London<br> >> >><br> >> >> My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and<br> >> >> Germany<br> >> >> succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build.<br> >> >><br> >> >> The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent<br> >> of<br> >> >> the<br> >> >> order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over<br> >> >> written<br> >> >> orders. Two other factors color his argument:<br> >> >><br> >> >> 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player<br> >> >> orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if<br> >> time<br> >> >> remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not<br> >> >> catch<br> >> >> all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for<br> >> >> their<br> >> >> own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way<br> >> through<br> >> >> the adjudication.<br> >> >><br> >> >> 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit<br> >> and<br> >> >> character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion,<br> >> >> choose<br> >> >> to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is<br> >> >> unsatisfactory.<br> >> >><br> >> >> The player in question claims that his strategy and position are<br> >> >> detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a<br> >> review<br> >> >> performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and<br> >> >> that<br> >> >> this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not<br> >> >> disagree<br> >> >> that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his<br> >> >> argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair.<br> >> >><br> >> >> I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My<br> >> >> apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this<br> >> >> matter.<br> >> >><br> >> >> Thanks all, very much,<br> >> >><br> >> >> Trout<br> >><br> >><br> >><br> ><br> ><br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> ><br> > <br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/message/5551;_ylc=X3oDMTMzY2hkZTY0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1MwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExODQyOTMwNDEEdHBjSWQDNTU1MQ--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvbWE5am9qBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU1MwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExODQyOTMwNDE-?act=reply&messageNum=5553"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbjgxMzJtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjkzMDQx" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZ2xmaXFmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjkzMDQx">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOTA3OWszBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdW5zczBjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTg0MjkzMDQx">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY3NnajMzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJiYzEwcXZrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcm1qbm5kBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOWhtaXFlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTg0MjkzMDQx">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjY2QyOWloBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzExODQyOTMwNDE-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- Do not have place to put it yet --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjMWQ2Z3I5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzExODQyOTMwNDE-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYjNqMXZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDc3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br> Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM;_ylc=X3oDMTJjY2Q0dWhoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDaHBmBHN0aW1lAzExODQyOTMwNDE-"> Visit Your Group </a> | <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"> Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject="> Unsubscribe </a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;"> <!-- Network content --> <!-- Start vitality --> <div id="ygrp-vital"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYjc5aG9yBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxMTg0MjkzMDQx"> Visit Your Group </a> </div> <div id="hd">SPONSORED LINKS</div> <div id="ov"> <ul> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiMWN0cGR0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--?t=ms&k=Computer+role+playing+game&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=7agTNLWYkq5ObrM_HxMI9g">Computer role playing game</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiaDZmZzhvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--?t=ms&k=Free+online+role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=4QpHlVvE7Ux1Po9XJHI3Mw">Free online role playing games</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiNXFlZjVnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--?t=ms&k=Diplomacy+game&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=o0Wl2D10ICbvYeRsM70Zvg">Diplomacy game</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiYnVxdmpnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--?t=ms&k=Online+role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=W1gqeu5BSpDhAVOPii3JUQ">Online role playing games</a></li> <li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJiM2tqbWg0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDMzYwMjY5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA1NzE0NwRzZWMDc2xtb2QEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDI5MzA0MQ--?t=ms&k=Role+playing+games&w1=Computer+role+playing+game&w2=Free+online+role+playing+games&w3=Diplomacy+game&w4=Online+role+playing+games&w5=Role+playing+games&c=5&s=143&g=2&.sig=XP57S-KjFJ8G03Tn-gmSJQ">Role playing games</a></li> </ul> </div> <!-- Network content --> <div id="nc"> <div class="ad"> <div id="hd1">Yahoo! News</div> <p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jkgalli/M=493064.10729659.11333350.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184300241/A=3848618/R=0/SIG=12u0hffnk/*http://news.yahoo.com/i/1413;_ylt=A9FJqa_awa5EhhEA4wfVJRIF;_ylu=X3oDMTA2MnU4czRtBHNlYwNzbg--">Sexual Health</a></p> <p>Get important</p> <p>sex health news</p> </div> <div class="ad"> <div id="hd1">Yahoo! Movies</div> <p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j3b18bn/M=493064.10729667.11333358.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184300241/A=3848595/R=0/SIG=113nf7q6i/*http://movies.yahoo.com/trailers/">Want a sneak peek?</a></p> <p>Check out new</p> <p>trailers and clips</p> </div> <div class="ad"> <DIV id=hd1>Yahoo! TV</DIV> <P><A href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jpbqnj7/M=493064.10729663.11333354.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184300241/A=3848445/R=0/SIG=10t28jksf/*http://tv.yahoo.com/lineup/">Staying in tonight?</A></P> <P>Check listings to</P> <P>see what is on.</P> </div> </div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=360269/grpspId=1705057147/msgId=5553/stime=1184293041/nc1=3848618/nc2=3848595/nc3=3848445" width="1" height="1"> <br> <span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </body> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <head> <style type="text/css"> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family: Arial; clear: both; } #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 77%; margin: 0; } #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding: 0 1px; } #ygrp-actbar{ clear: both; margin: 25px 0; white-space:nowrap; color: #666; text-align: right; } #ygrp-actbar .left{ float: left; white-space:nowrap; } .bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family: Verdana; font-size: 77%; padding: 15px 0; } #ygrp-ft{ font-family: verdana; font-size: 77%; border-top: 1px solid #666; padding: 5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-vital{ background-color: #e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 2px 0 8px 8px; } #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size: 77%; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; } #ygrp-vital ul{ padding: 0; margin: 2px 0; } #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type: none; clear: both; border: 1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight: bold; color: #ff7900; float: right; width: 2em; text-align:right; padding-right: .5em; } #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight: bold; } #ygrp-vital a { text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration: underline; } #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color: #999; font-size: 77%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding: 6px 13px; background-color: #e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding: 0 0 0 8px; margin: 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; font-size: 77%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration: none; font-size: 130%; } #ygrp-sponsor #nc { background-color: #eee; margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0 8px; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding: 8px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: #628c2a; font-size: 100%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration: underline; } #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin: 0; } o {font-size: 0; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } #ygrp-text tt{ font-size: 120%; } blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;} .replbq {margin:4} --> </style> </head> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </html><!--End group email --> --0-YvrmvkrtxTqmNYtRHPtOtgsojlDUy6rgNazYw--