Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"Peter J Richardson" <[email protected]> Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:14:01 +0100
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <003801c7c51d$646347e0$2430fd3e@oemcomputer> |
--H0VNFR-F-fqtMFcqz5FZ3RE-ai1NIRjSncVlFE4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Former Trout" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > Thanks Peter & Roy, I definitely appreciate it... > > The follow-up question being whether the player is correct in stating that > player intent should trump the written orders. I know that isn't the way my > house rules are currently written - but I wouldn't mind hearing what the > general consensus out there is. > > Should a GM hold player intent at a higher consideration than actual order > submittal? If you mean should the GM try to second guess a player's intention, no, never. You have no way of knowing whether any given misorder is deliberate or not. The player's opportunity to communicate his intent is prior to adjudication when he writes his orders out. If he fails to do so, then it is up to you to interpret what is written in accordance with the rules of the game and your houserules. So long as a player has the means to know what you would do in a given situation and you rule in accordance with what you have said he has no valid grounds to blame anybody but himself. As a secondary note, with that last point in mind, I think that other house rule giving you the discretion to "choose to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is unsatisfactory" is a hostage to fortune. It muddies the water when players are trying to assess in advance how a given order set would be interpreted and gives your player leverage to argue that you should not rule in accordance with your houserules. Regards Peter > > Trout > > On 7/12/07, Peter J Richardson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I have two thoughts on this: > > > > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to the > > players before they agreed to play in the > > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint. > > > > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to > > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you > > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be shot > > at. My advice is to make players entirely > > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for > > the consequences when orders are unclear or > > mistaken. > > > > Regards > > Peter > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Former Trout" <[email protected] <former.trout%40gmail.com>> > > To: <[email protected] <Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM > > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a > > ruling > > > based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my > > > ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here. > > > > > > My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the > > game > > > for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about > > > this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it. > > > > > > The House rule in particular: > > > > > > IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders: > > > (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the > > type > > > of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not invalidate > > the > > > order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will > > > invalidate the order. > > > > > > The situation: > > > A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET > > English > > > Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows: > > > > > > England: > > > A Wales -> London > > > Germany: > > > F English Channel -> London > > > > > > My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and > > Germany > > > succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build. > > > > > > The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent of > > the > > > order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over > > written > > > orders. Two other factors color his argument: > > > > > > 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player > > > orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if time > > > remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not > > catch > > > all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for > > their > > > own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way through > > > the adjudication. > > > > > > 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit and > > > character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion, > > choose > > > to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is > > > unsatisfactory. > > > > > > The player in question claims that his strategy and position are > > > detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a > > review > > > performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and > > that > > > this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not > > disagree > > > that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his > > > argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair. > > > > > > I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My > > > apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this > > matter. > > > > > > Thanks all, very much, > > > > > > Trout > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > Community email addresses: > > > Post message: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40onelist.com> > > > Subscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com> > > > Unsubscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com> > > > List owner: [email protected] <CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com> > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Community email addresses: > Post message: [email protected] > Subscribe: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: [email protected] > List owner: [email protected] > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > --H0VNFR-F-fqtMFcqz5FZ3RE-ai1NIRjSncVlFE4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p><br> ----- Original Message -----<br> From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br> To: <<a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>><br> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 12:33 AM<br> Subject: Re: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> <br> > Thanks Peter & Roy, I definitely appreciate it...<br> ><br> > The follow-up question being whether the player is correct in stating that<br> > player intent should trump the written orders. I know that isn't the way my<br> > house rules are currently written - but I wouldn't mind hearing what the<br> > general consensus out there is.<br> ><br> > Should a GM hold player intent at a higher consideration than actual order<br> > submittal?<br> <br> If you mean should the GM try to second guess a player's intention, no, never. You have no way of knowing whether<br> any given misorder is deliberate or not. The player's opportunity to communicate his intent is prior to adjudication<br> when he writes his orders out. If he fails to do so, then it is up to you to interpret what is written in accordance<br> with the rules of the game and your houserules. So long as a player has the means to know what you would do in a<br> given situation and you rule in accordance with what you have said he has no valid grounds to blame anybody but<br> himself. As a secondary note, with that last point in mind, I think that other house rule giving you the discretion<br> to "choose to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is unsatisfactory" is a hostage to fortune.<br> It muddies the water when players are trying to assess in advance how a given order set would be interpreted and<br> gives your player leverage to argue that you should not rule in accordance with your houserules.<br> <br> Regards<br> Peter<br> <br> ><br> > Trout<br> ><br> > On 7/12/07, Peter J Richardson <<a href="mailto:pjrich.1962%40googlemail.com">pjrich.1962@<wbr>googlemail.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > I have two thoughts on this:<br> > ><br> > > 1) If you ruled in accordance with your HR, and your HR were given to the<br> > > players before they agreed to play in the<br> > > game then they have no valid grounds for complaint.<br> > ><br> > > 2) Offering to proof-read players' orders for mistakes prior to<br> > > adjudication is inviting trouble. First time you<br> > > fail to pick up a mistake in advance you put yourself up there to be shot<br> > > at. My advice is to make players entirely<br> > > responsible for checking their orders and thus entirely responsible for<br> > > the consequences when orders are unclear or<br> > > mistaken.<br> > ><br> > > Regards<br> > > Peter<br> > ><br> > > ----- Original Message -----<br> > > From: "Former Trout" <<a href="mailto:former.trout%40gmail.com">former.trout@<wbr>gmail.com</a> <former.trout%<wbr>40gmail.com><wbr>><br> > > To: <<a href="mailto:Cat23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <Cat23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><wbr>><br> > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:45 PM<br> > > Subject: [CAT23-GM] Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> > ><br> > > > Hi folks,<br> > > ><br> > > > A matter has arisen in one of my games concerning a house rule and a<br> > > ruling<br> > > > based on it. The player in question has requested second opinions on my<br> > > > ruling, and I can think of no better place to ask than here.<br> > > ><br> > > > My house rules are always distributed to players at the start of the<br> > > game<br> > > > for their review and comment. In this case, no reference was made about<br> > > > this HR being unfair until the game ruling was made based on it.<br> > > ><br> > > > The House rule in particular:<br> > > ><br> > > > IV. Specification of Unit Type, Unit Nationality and Coast in Orders:<br> > > > (1) Omitted or Inaccurate Designations: An omitted designation of the<br> > > type<br> > > > of a unit (A or F) in orders other than build orders will not invalidate<br> > > the<br> > > > order. An inaccurate designation of the type of a unit (A or F) will<br> > > > invalidate the order.<br> > > ><br> > > > The situation:<br> > > > A four center England has FLEET Wales. A 6 center Germany has FLEET<br> > > English<br> > > > Channel. It is currently a Fall season. The orders are as follows:<br> > > ><br> > > > England:<br> > > > A Wales -> London<br> > > > Germany:<br> > > > F English Channel -> London<br> > > ><br> > > > My ruling is that based on my HR's, the English order is invalid and<br> > > Germany<br> > > > succeeds into London, taking the center and gaining a build.<br> > > ><br> > > > The English player has protested this ruling claiming that the intent of<br> > > the<br> > > > order is clear, and that player intent should take precedence over<br> > > written<br> > > > orders. Two other factors color his argument:<br> > > ><br> > > > 1. My house rules state that if I see an apparent misorder in player<br> > > > orders, at my discretion I will seek to clarify with the player, if time<br> > > > remains prior to the adjudication. It states clearly that I will not<br> > > catch<br> > > > all possible mistakes and that players are ultimately responsible for<br> > > their<br> > > > own orders. In this case, I did not spot the error until mid-way through<br> > > > the adjudication.<br> > > ><br> > > > 2. My house rules also state that if in a situation where the spirit and<br> > > > character of the game will be impacted that I may, at my discretion,<br> > > choose<br> > > > to ignore the house rules if a less drastic course of action is<br> > > > unsatisfactory.<br> > > ><br> > > > The player in question claims that his strategy and position are<br> > > > detrimentally and fatally impacted by this ruling and would like a<br> > > review<br> > > > performed of it. Again, his position is that the intent was clear and<br> > > that<br> > > > this should trump accurate unit designation. The player does not<br> > > disagree<br> > > > that the correct decision was made according to the house rules, his<br> > > > argument is that the house rules are wrong and unfair.<br> > > ><br> > > > I would love to hear second, third or even fourth opinions on this. My<br> > > > apologies for bothering you all, but I need help in resolving this<br> > > matter.<br> > > ><br> > > > Thanks all, very much,<br> > > ><br> > > > Trout<br> > > ><br> > > ><br> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> > > ><br> > > ><br> > > ><br> > > > Community email addresses:<br> > > > Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <CAT23-GM%40onelist<wbr>.com><br> > > > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><CAT23-GM-subscribe<wbr>%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > > > Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><CAT23-GM-unsubscri<wbr>be%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > > > List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a> <CAT23-GM-owner%<wbr>40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > > ><br> > > > Shortcut URL to this page:<br> > > > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> > > ><br> > > ><br> > > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> ><br> ><br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > Community email addresses:<br> > Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a><br> > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> > Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><br> > List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> ><br> > Shortcut URL to this page:<br> > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> > Yahoo! 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