Re: Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"Former Trout" <[email protected]> Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:53:37 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
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--HhXmXJqwIBUTh6sD9P2MKowT3GqYJOWYpM64dOB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But to carry this argument further, then there would be no problem with a misorder at all. A player could have a fleet in the North Sea and order F Nth -> Nor. Now which zone does he mean - Norway or Norwegian Sea? This is precisely why in the rules it states that an order with two possible meanings should be invalid. Simplicity is thus limited by the rulebook, and rightly so. What is to be gained by this house rule? It takes away another instance where the GM is required to 'interpret' player orders. In my mind, the more of these instances you can eliminate, the better. No matter what the situation, when a GM has to interpret player orders then one player gains and another player loses based on a GM's opinion. As a player myself, I find that inherently unfair. As a GM, I find it an impossible situation to win in - no matter what you decide, one player will be rewarded and another punished. I agree with this strict approach, controversy is bound to follow. However, as many have pointed out, the proper time to object to this house rule is prior to game start when players review the house rules. Not during the middle of the game when the player is affected by it. Trout On 7/18/07, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > Some of you guys would really make great senators.... > > This entire issue boils down to two things.? Almost all of us have > acknowledged that Trout's house rules were stated beforehand, and that he > was correct to adjudicate the way he has.? He really has no choice but to do > so.?? With that out of the way the only thing remaining is a question of > what exactly is gained by having a house rule so written.? In my view the > ONLY thing gained by this is instances of controversy like this.? There is > no benefit to be had by ruling the order in question? invalid.? Part of the > natural beauty of this game is it's simplicity. When we write our house > rules, isn't it best to keep this in mind? > > As someone else correctly pointed out, the overwhelming majority of > occurences of this scenario are going to be the result of a typo.?Are we > really interested in being that focused on invalidating an order on a > typo??? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Kuehn <[email protected] <akuehn%40nc.rr.com>> > To: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:13 pm > Subject: RE: [CAT23-GM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions > > Steph Mabie writes: > > > Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the > > generally accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army & > > Fleet). Could "F" > > stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is > > plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for > > either type of unit, and without asking the player exactly > > what he meant, the GM cannot know. > > I'm sorry, but I reject this argument. Assuming you are conducting the > game > in English, the "A" to mean "army" and the "F" to mean "fleet" are > explicitly defined in the rulebook. It completely stretches credibility to > assert that "A", when used as a unit designation, is somehow ambiguous. > > It is reasonable to recognize, however, that unit designation mistakes are > 1. relatively easy to make, and 2. hard to spot once made. Also, the > rulebook does not explicitly require the use of unit designations at all > (although all the sample orders use them). Therefore, I don't have a > problem with someone concluding it is therefore less disruptive to the > game > to ignore unit designations Which is what you are doing by assuming: > > > [W]hen a player names an area occupied by that player, > > no matter what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do > > something. > > That's a legitimate human factors argument. But ambiguous? No, "A Lon" is > not ambiguous in the least. It clearly does not "admit of two meanings". > > > If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army > > to move to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can > > otherwise not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written? > > Very much so. Illegal? Not in my opinion. > > I would hold up "A Lon - Ber" as the very definition of an illegal order. > Did I misread you? > > > [O]ne of the other players (who, as it > > happened, was Edi Birsan) pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could > > have only one possible legal interpretation, it should have been > > considered a legal move. > > I want to make sure we're clear on the phrasing. "Swe - Nor" has only one > possible interpretation which results in a legal move. That's different > from saying that "Swe - Nor" has one possible legal interpretation. That > difference can be important depending upon how you construe the sentence > in > the rulebook which says, "An order which admits of two meanings is not > followed." Does an order which has two or more possible interpretations, > only one of which results in a legal move, "admit of two meanings"? The > answer to that question resolves a great many misorder disputes. > Unfortunately for us, the rulebook doesn't explicitly answer it. Which is > why we have the Model House Rules. > > -Adam > > Community email addresses: > Post message: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40onelist.com> > Subscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com> > List owner: [email protected] <CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com> > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > Yahoo! Groups Links > > __________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --HhXmXJqwIBUTh6sD9P2MKowT3GqYJOWYpM64dOB Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>But to carry this argument further, then there would be no problem with a<br> misorder at all. A player could have a fleet in the North Sea and order F<br> Nth -> Nor. Now which zone does he mean - Norway or Norwegian Sea? This is<br> precisely why in the rules it states that an order with two possible<br> meanings should be invalid. Simplicity is thus limited by the rulebook, and<br> rightly so.<br> <br> What is to be gained by this house rule? It takes away another instance<br> where the GM is required to 'interpret' player orders. In my mind, the more<br> of these instances you can eliminate, the better. No matter what the<br> situation, when a GM has to interpret player orders then one player gains<br> and another player loses based on a GM's opinion. As a player myself, I<br> find that inherently unfair. As a GM, I find it an impossible situation to<br> win in - no matter what you decide, one player will be rewarded and another<br> punished.<br> <br> I agree with this strict approach, controversy is bound to follow. However,<br> as many have pointed out, the proper time to object to this house rule is<br> prior to game start when players review the house rules. Not during the<br> middle of the game when the player is affected by it.<br> <br> Trout<br> <br> On 7/18/07, <a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a> <<a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Some of you guys would really make great senators....<br> ><br> > This entire issue boils down to two things.? Almost all of us have<br> > acknowledged that Trout's house rules were stated beforehand, and that he<br> > was correct to adjudicate the way he has.? He really has no choice but to do<br> > so.?? With that out of the way the only thing remaining is a question of<br> > what exactly is gained by having a house rule so written.? In my view the<br> > ONLY thing gained by this is instances of controversy like this.? There is<br> > no benefit to be had by ruling the order in question? invalid.? Part of the<br> > natural beauty of this game is it's simplicity. When we write our house<br> > rules, isn't it best to keep this in mind?<br> ><br> > As someone else correctly pointed out, the overwhelming majority of<br> > occurences of this scenario are going to be the result of a typo.?Are we<br> > really interested in being that focused on invalidating an order on a<br> > typo???<br> ><br> > -----Original Message-----<br> > From: Adam Kuehn <<a href="mailto:akuehn%40nc.rr.com">[email protected].<wbr>com</a> <akuehn%40nc.<wbr>rr.com>><br> > To: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><br> > Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:13 pm<br> > Subject: RE: [CAT23-GM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> ><br> > Steph Mabie writes:<br> ><br> > > Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the<br> > > generally accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army &<br> > > Fleet). Could "F"<br> > > stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is<br> > > plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for<br> > > either type of unit, and without asking the player exactly<br> > > what he meant, the GM cannot know.<br> ><br> > I'm sorry, but I reject this argument. Assuming you are conducting the<br> > game<br> > in English, the "A" to mean "army" and the "F" to mean "fleet" are<br> > explicitly defined in the rulebook. It completely stretches credibility to<br> > assert that "A", when used as a unit designation, is somehow ambiguous.<br> ><br> > It is reasonable to recognize, however, that unit designation mistakes are<br> > 1. relatively easy to make, and 2. hard to spot once made. Also, the<br> > rulebook does not explicitly require the use of unit designations at all<br> > (although all the sample orders use them). Therefore, I don't have a<br> > problem with someone concluding it is therefore less disruptive to the<br> > game<br> > to ignore unit designations Which is what you are doing by assuming:<br> ><br> > > [W]hen a player names an area occupied by that player,<br> > > no matter what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do<br> > > something.<br> ><br> > That's a legitimate human factors argument. But ambiguous? No, "A Lon" is<br> > not ambiguous in the least. It clearly does not "admit of two meanings".<br> ><br> > > If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army<br> > > to move to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can<br> > > otherwise not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written?<br> > > Very much so. Illegal? Not in my opinion.<br> ><br> > I would hold up "A Lon - Ber" as the very definition of an illegal order.<br> > Did I misread you?<br> ><br> > > [O]ne of the other players (who, as it<br> > > happened, was Edi Birsan) pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could<br> > > have only one possible legal interpretation, it should have been<br> > > considered a legal move.<br> ><br> > I want to make sure we're clear on the phrasing. "Swe - Nor" has only one<br> > possible interpretation which results in a legal move. That's different<br> > from saying that "Swe - Nor" has one possible legal interpretation. That<br> > difference can be important depending upon how you construe the sentence<br> > in<br> > the rulebook which says, "An order which admits of two meanings is not<br> > followed." Does an order which has two or more possible interpretations,<br> > only one of which results in a legal move, "admit of two meanings"? The<br> > answer to that question resolves a great many misorder disputes.<br> > Unfortunately for us, the rulebook doesn't explicitly answer it. Which is<br> > why we have the Model House Rules.<br> ><br> > -Adam<br> ><br> > Community email addresses:<br> > Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <CAT23-GM%40onelist<wbr>.com><br> > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><CAT23-GM-subscribe<wbr>%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><CAT23-GM-unsubscri<wbr>be%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> > List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a> <CAT23-GM-owner%<wbr>40onelist.<wbr>com><br> ><br> > Shortcut URL to this page:<br> > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> > Yahoo! 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