Re: Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
Ray Setzer <[email protected]> Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:07:51 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--4TvRkI0uC3MiL8Y2Kq5b1Mucj6DOOrgUX-PcFbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Former Trout wrote: > But to carry this argument further, then there would be no problem with a > misorder at all. A player could have a fleet in the North Sea and order F > Nth -> Nor. Now which zone does he mean - Norway or Norwegian Sea? This is > precisely why in the rules it states that an order with two possible > meanings should be invalid. Simplicity is thus limited by the rulebook, and > rightly so. You really don't see the difference? > What is to be gained by this house rule? It takes away another instance > where the GM is required to 'interpret' player orders. In my mind, the more > of these instances you can eliminate, the better. No matter what the > situation, when a GM has to interpret player orders then one player gains > and another player loses based on a GM's opinion. As a player myself, I > find that inherently unfair. As a GM, I find it an impossible situation to > win in - no matter what you decide, one player will be rewarded and another > punished. > > I agree with this strict approach, controversy is bound to follow. However, > as many have pointed out, the proper time to object to this house rule is > prior to game start when players review the house rules. Not during the > middle of the game when the player is affected by it. Because in one instance people would be playing a Diplomacy game, and in another it would be a spelling bee. It assumes that the object of the game is to conform most tightly to a specific syntax. And if such is the case, then the game should simply be run on a judge. > Trout > > On 7/18/07, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> Some of you guys would really make great senators.... >> >> This entire issue boils down to two things.? Almost all of us have >> acknowledged that Trout's house rules were stated beforehand, and that he >> was correct to adjudicate the way he has.? He really has no choice but to do >> so.?? With that out of the way the only thing remaining is a question of >> what exactly is gained by having a house rule so written.? In my view the >> ONLY thing gained by this is instances of controversy like this.? There is >> no benefit to be had by ruling the order in question? invalid.? Part of the >> natural beauty of this game is it's simplicity. When we write our house >> rules, isn't it best to keep this in mind? >> >> As someone else correctly pointed out, the overwhelming majority of >> occurences of this scenario are going to be the result of a typo.?Are we >> really interested in being that focused on invalidating an order on a >> typo??? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Adam Kuehn <[email protected] <akuehn%40nc.rr.com>> >> To: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:13 pm >> Subject: RE: [CAT23-GM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions >> >> Steph Mabie writes: >> >>> Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the >>> generally accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army & >>> Fleet). Could "F" >>> stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is >>> plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for >>> either type of unit, and without asking the player exactly >>> what he meant, the GM cannot know. >> I'm sorry, but I reject this argument. Assuming you are conducting the >> game >> in English, the "A" to mean "army" and the "F" to mean "fleet" are >> explicitly defined in the rulebook. It completely stretches credibility to >> assert that "A", when used as a unit designation, is somehow ambiguous. >> >> It is reasonable to recognize, however, that unit designation mistakes are >> 1. relatively easy to make, and 2. hard to spot once made. Also, the >> rulebook does not explicitly require the use of unit designations at all >> (although all the sample orders use them). Therefore, I don't have a >> problem with someone concluding it is therefore less disruptive to the >> game >> to ignore unit designations Which is what you are doing by assuming: >> >>> [W]hen a player names an area occupied by that player, >>> no matter what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do >>> something. >> That's a legitimate human factors argument. But ambiguous? No, "A Lon" is >> not ambiguous in the least. It clearly does not "admit of two meanings". >> >>> If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army >>> to move to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can >>> otherwise not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written? >>> Very much so. Illegal? Not in my opinion. >> I would hold up "A Lon - Ber" as the very definition of an illegal order. >> Did I misread you? >> >>> [O]ne of the other players (who, as it >>> happened, was Edi Birsan) pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could >>> have only one possible legal interpretation, it should have been >>> considered a legal move. >> I want to make sure we're clear on the phrasing. "Swe - Nor" has only one >> possible interpretation which results in a legal move. That's different >> from saying that "Swe - Nor" has one possible legal interpretation. That >> difference can be important depending upon how you construe the sentence >> in >> the rulebook which says, "An order which admits of two meanings is not >> followed." Does an order which has two or more possible interpretations, >> only one of which results in a legal move, "admit of two meanings"? The >> answer to that question resolves a great many misorder disputes. >> Unfortunately for us, the rulebook doesn't explicitly answer it. Which is >> why we have the Model House Rules. >> >> -Adam >> >> Community email addresses: >> Post message: [email protected] <CAT23-GM%40onelist.com> >> Subscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com> >> Unsubscribe: [email protected]<CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com> >> List owner: [email protected] <CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com> >> >> Shortcut URL to this page: >> http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free >> from AOL at AOL.com. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Community email addresses: > Post message: [email protected] > Subscribe: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: [email protected] > List owner: [email protected] > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > --4TvRkI0uC3MiL8Y2Kq5b1Mucj6DOOrgUX-PcFbe Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p><br> <br> Former Trout wrote:<br> > But to carry this argument further, then there would be no problem with a<br> > misorder at all. A player could have a fleet in the North Sea and order F<br> > Nth -> Nor. Now which zone does he mean - Norway or Norwegian Sea? This is<br> > precisely why in the rules it states that an order with two possible<br> > meanings should be invalid. Simplicity is thus limited by the rulebook, and<br> > rightly so.<br> <br> You really don't see the difference?<br> <br> > What is to be gained by this house rule? It takes away another instance<br> > where the GM is required to 'interpret' player orders. In my mind, the more<br> > of these instances you can eliminate, the better. No matter what the<br> > situation, when a GM has to interpret player orders then one player gains<br> > and another player loses based on a GM's opinion. As a player myself, I<br> > find that inherently unfair. As a GM, I find it an impossible situation to<br> > win in - no matter what you decide, one player will be rewarded and another<br> > punished.<br> > <br> > I agree with this strict approach, controversy is bound to follow. However,<br> > as many have pointed out, the proper time to object to this house rule is<br> > prior to game start when players review the house rules. Not during the<br> > middle of the game when the player is affected by it.<br> <br> Because in one instance people would be playing a Diplomacy game, and in <br> another it would be a spelling bee. It assumes that the object of the <br> game is to conform most tightly to a specific syntax. And if such is the <br> case, then the game should simply be run on a judge.<br> <br> > Trout<br> > <br> > On 7/18/07, <a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a> <<a href="mailto:RUFFHAUS8%40aol.com">RUFFHAUS8@aol.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:<br> >> Some of you guys would really make great senators....<br> >><br> >> This entire issue boils down to two things.? Almost all of us have<br> >> acknowledged that Trout's house rules were stated beforehand, and that he<br> >> was correct to adjudicate the way he has.? He really has no choice but to do<br> >> so.?? With that out of the way the only thing remaining is a question of<br> >> what exactly is gained by having a house rule so written.? In my view the<br> >> ONLY thing gained by this is instances of controversy like this.? There is<br> >> no benefit to be had by ruling the order in question? invalid.? Part of the<br> >> natural beauty of this game is it's simplicity. When we write our house<br> >> rules, isn't it best to keep this in mind?<br> >><br> >> As someone else correctly pointed out, the overwhelming majority of<br> >> occurences of this scenario are going to be the result of a typo.?Are we<br> >> really interested in being that focused on invalidating an order on a<br> >> typo???<br> >><br> >> -----Original Message-----<br> >> From: Adam Kuehn <<a href="mailto:akuehn%40nc.rr.com">[email protected].<wbr>com</a> <akuehn%40nc.<wbr>rr.com>><br> >> To: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <CAT23-GM%40yahoogr<wbr>oups.com><br> >> Sent: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:13 pm<br> >> Subject: RE: [CAT23-GM] Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions<br> >><br> >> Steph Mabie writes:<br> >><br> >>> Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the<br> >>> generally accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army &<br> >>> Fleet). Could "F"<br> >>> stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is<br> >>> plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for<br> >>> either type of unit, and without asking the player exactly<br> >>> what he meant, the GM cannot know.<br> >> I'm sorry, but I reject this argument. Assuming you are conducting the<br> >> game<br> >> in English, the "A" to mean "army" and the "F" to mean "fleet" are<br> >> explicitly defined in the rulebook. It completely stretches credibility to<br> >> assert that "A", when used as a unit designation, is somehow ambiguous.<br> >><br> >> It is reasonable to recognize, however, that unit designation mistakes are<br> >> 1. relatively easy to make, and 2. hard to spot once made. Also, the<br> >> rulebook does not explicitly require the use of unit designations at all<br> >> (although all the sample orders use them). Therefore, I don't have a<br> >> problem with someone concluding it is therefore less disruptive to the<br> >> game<br> >> to ignore unit designations Which is what you are doing by assuming:<br> >><br> >>> [W]hen a player names an area occupied by that player,<br> >>> no matter what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do<br> >>> something.<br> >> That's a legitimate human factors argument. But ambiguous? No, "A Lon" is<br> >> not ambiguous in the least. It clearly does not "admit of two meanings".<br> >><br> >>> If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army<br> >>> to move to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can<br> >>> otherwise not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written?<br> >>> Very much so. Illegal? Not in my opinion.<br> >> I would hold up "A Lon - Ber" as the very definition of an illegal order.<br> >> Did I misread you?<br> >><br> >>> [O]ne of the other players (who, as it<br> >>> happened, was Edi Birsan) pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could<br> >>> have only one possible legal interpretation, it should have been<br> >>> considered a legal move.<br> >> I want to make sure we're clear on the phrasing. "Swe - Nor" has only one<br> >> possible interpretation which results in a legal move. That's different<br> >> from saying that "Swe - Nor" has one possible legal interpretation. That<br> >> difference can be important depending upon how you construe the sentence<br> >> in<br> >> the rulebook which says, "An order which admits of two meanings is not<br> >> followed." Does an order which has two or more possible interpretations,<br> >> only one of which results in a legal move, "admit of two meanings"? The<br> >> answer to that question resolves a great many misorder disputes.<br> >> Unfortunately for us, the rulebook doesn't explicitly answer it. Which is<br> >> why we have the Model House Rules.<br> >><br> >> -Adam<br> >><br> >> Community email addresses:<br> >> Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a> <CAT23-GM%40onelist<wbr>.com><br> >> Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><CAT23-GM-subscribe<wbr>%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >> Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><CAT23-GM-unsubscri<wbr>be%40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >> List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a> <CAT23-GM-owner%<wbr>40onelist.<wbr>com><br> >><br> >> Shortcut URL to this page:<br> >> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a><br> >> Yahoo! Groups Links<br> >><br> >> ____________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_<br> >> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free<br> >> from AOL at AOL.com.<br> >><br> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> >><br> >> <br> >><br> > <br> > <br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > Community email addresses:<br> > Post message: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM@onelist.<wbr>com</a><br> > Subscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-subscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-subscribe@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> > Unsubscribe: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-unsubscribe%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-unsubscrib<wbr>e@onelist.<wbr>com</a><br> > List owner: <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM-owner%40onelist.com">CAT23-GM-owner@<wbr>onelist.com</a><br> > <br> > Shortcut URL to this page:<br> > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/CAT23-GM">http://www.onelist.<wbr>com/community/<wbr>CAT23-GM</a> <br> > Yahoo! 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