Re: A rules questions
Luis <[email protected]> Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:31:07 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.new-games,gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.results.twelve-hundred |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--LbY2DcIV8uYxxSg4BpfMLFIS3AAKEpGuOyJzFHL
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Void. Gascony does not border Spain/sc and you can only support into
provinces you are able to move in directly; for fleet puprposes, that
affects to "semi-provinces" (coasts) too. Would it be A Gas S... then it
would be perfectly valid.
In doubt (and only for Standard Dip), run Realpolitik and see what
happens. In this case it's void.
Luis.
Babak Talebi wrote:
> Friends -
>
> Two dip players of some experience have come to a disagreement on a rules
> question. If you could shed light on this situation, it would be most
> appreciated.
>
> *The Situation:*
>
> F Por to Spa(sc)
> F Gas S F Por to Spa(sc)
>
> *The Question:*
> **
> is the order for F Gas *Void* or *Valid*
>
> *The Rules:*
>
> On page 7 in the 4th edition of the rules (
> http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf
> <http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf>) two
> relevant quotes can be found...
>
> 1) "A fleet that can move to a province with two separate coasts (A fleet
> in the Mid-Atlantic for example) can support another Army or Fleet
> into that
> province (in this case Spain) without regard to separate coastlines." (2nd
> paragraph - 2nd column)
>
> 2) "The province to which a unit is providing support must be one to which
> the supporting unit could have legally moved during that turn.
> ...Likewise a
> Fleet in Rome could not support a unit's move to Venice because, although
> adjacent by land, the Fleet can not move to Venice from Rome." (1st
> paragraph - 2nd column)
>
> *The Arguments:*
> **
> one reading of these rules is that "If you can move to a province you can
> support ANY action in that province. period". ie - the fleet in Gas can
> support Por to Spa(sc) because it can itself move to Spa thus making the
> support order *Valid*.
>
> the second reading is that since Spa(sc) is not a province that the
> supporting unit (F Gas) 'could have legally moved' to, it is thus an
> illegal
> support and therefore *Void*.
>
> I leave this earth-shattering question to these august bodies of wisdom on
> Cat23 and look forward to reading various judicious opinions on the
> matter. Has this been resolved elsewhere?
>
> I am told by my fellow diplomacy player that he is 100% positive of his
> position and since I hold him and his experience in high regard, I am
> inclined to agree with him - but felt that due to my minor doubt, I should
> consult with the rest of the village elders first. (ps. I still have not
> told you all which position I have taken in this)
>
> Babak
>
> .
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--LbY2DcIV8uYxxSg4BpfMLFIS3AAKEpGuOyJzFHL
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 470px; margin:0; padding:0 25px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>Void. Gascony does not border Spain/sc and you can only support into <br>
provinces you are able to move in directly; for fleet puprposes, that <br>
affects to "semi-provinces" (coasts) too. Would it be A Gas S... then it <br>
would be perfectly valid.<br>
<br>
In doubt (and only for Standard Dip), run Realpolitik and see what <br>
happens. In this case it's void.<br>
<br>
Luis.<br>
<br>
Babak Talebi wrote:<br>
<br>
> Friends -<br>
><br>
> Two dip players of some experience have come to a disagreement on a rules<br>
> question. If you could shed light on this situation, it would be most<br>
> appreciated.<br>
><br>
> *The Situation:*<br>
><br>
> F Por to Spa(sc)<br>
> F Gas S F Por to Spa(sc)<br>
><br>
> *The Question:*<br>
> **<br>
> is the order for F Gas *Void* or *Valid*<br>
><br>
> *The Rules:*<br>
><br>
> On page 7 in the 4th edition of the rules (<br>
> <a href="http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf">http://www.diplomac<wbr>y-archive.<wbr>com/resources/<wbr>rulebooks/<wbr>2000AH4th.<wbr>pdf</a> <br>
> <<a href="http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf">http://www.diplomac<wbr>y-archive.<wbr>com/resources/<wbr>rulebooks/<wbr>2000AH4th.<wbr>pdf</a>>) two<br>
> relevant quotes can be found...<br>
><br>
> 1) "A fleet that can move to a province with two separate coasts (A fleet<br>
> in the Mid-Atlantic for example) can support another Army or Fleet <br>
> into that<br>
> province (in this case Spain) without regard to separate coastlines." (2nd<br>
> paragraph - 2nd column)<br>
><br>
> 2) "The province to which a unit is providing support must be one to which<br>
> the supporting unit could have legally moved during that turn. <br>
> ...Likewise a<br>
> Fleet in Rome could not support a unit's move to Venice because, although<br>
> adjacent by land, the Fleet can not move to Venice from Rome." (1st<br>
> paragraph - 2nd column)<br>
><br>
> *The Arguments:*<br>
> **<br>
> one reading of these rules is that "If you can move to a province you can<br>
> support ANY action in that province. period". ie - the fleet in Gas can<br>
> support Por to Spa(sc) because it can itself move to Spa thus making the<br>
> support order *Valid*.<br>
><br>
> the second reading is that since Spa(sc) is not a province that the<br>
> supporting unit (F Gas) 'could have legally moved' to, it is thus an <br>
> illegal<br>
> support and therefore *Void*.<br>
><br>
> I leave this earth-shattering question to these august bodies of wisdom on<br>
> Cat23 and look forward to reading various judicious opinions on the<br>
> matter. Has this been resolved elsewhere?<br>
><br>
> I am told by my fellow diplomacy player that he is 100% positive of his<br>
> position and since I hold him and his experience in high regard, I am<br>
> inclined to agree with him - but felt that due to my minor doubt, I should<br>
> consult with the rest of the village elders first. (ps. I still have not<br>
> told you all which position I have taken in this)<br>
><br>
> Babak<br>
><br>
> .<br>
><br>
> <br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/message/6693;_ylc=X3oDMTMzZGQ5YjZ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNjY5NARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3NjA3OTkEdHBjSWQDNjY5Mw--">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">2</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvYTB2NWJ0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNjY5NARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3NjA3OTk-?act=reply&messageNum=6694">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbGs0M2x1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjE3NzYwNzk5" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZmRtNXQ0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMjE3NzYwNzk4">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcHM5YWUyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc2MDc5OA--">Files</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZXJvb3RzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMjE3NzYwNzk4">Photos</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMTZldTR0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc2MDc5OA--">Links</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJiMnMzNDJtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc2MDc5OA--">Database</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZ3ZycWdqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc2MDc5OA--">Polls</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbHIzMzNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMjE3NzYwNzk4">Members</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjZzNtZ2lmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3NjA3OTg-">Calendar</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjZnQ1Z3JrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3NjA3OTk-">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMWduZWJ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDc3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc2MDc5OQ--">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame;_ylc=X3oDMTJjcDljdjhxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDaHBmBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3NjA3OTk-">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background:white;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM3A2aWozBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxMjE3NzYwNzk4">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! News</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o44icil/M=493064.12016309.12445701.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1217767999/L=/B=wAqYAkLaX9w-/J=1217760799958238/A=3848627/R=0/SIG=10obc6i69/*http://news.yahoo.com/">Get it all here</a></p>
<p>Breaking news to</p>
<p>entertainment news</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ocvlelb/M=493064.12016262.12445669.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1217767999/L=/B=wQqYAkLaX9w-/J=1217760799958238/A=5028926/R=0/SIG=11e3tma2a/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/moderatorcentral">Latest product news</a></p>
<p>Join Mod. Central</p>
<p>stay connected.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Discover Tips</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13okd4eka/M=493064.12662709.12980595.8674578/D=groups/S=1705057147:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1217767999/L=/B=wgqYAkLaX9w-/J=1217760799958238/A=5349283/R=0/SIG=11ks6tatn/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/HealthyLiving/">on healthy living</a></p>
<p>and healthy eating</p>
<p>on Yahoo! Groups.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=361392/grpspId=1705057147/msgId=6694/stime=1217760799/nc1=3848627/nc2=5028926/nc3=5349283" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 14px 0px;
padding: 0px 14px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd{
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0px;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads{
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad{
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a{
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
}
#reco-grpname{
font-weight: bold;
margin-top: 10px;
}
#reco-category{
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc{
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->
--LbY2DcIV8uYxxSg4BpfMLFIS3AAKEpGuOyJzFHL--