Re: A rules questions

Luis <[email protected]> Sun, 03 Aug 2008 17:58:24 +0200
Newsgroups gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.new-games,gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.results.twelve-hundred
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Ok, Doug. I stand corrected. I should have checked RP before posting but 
it looked sooo obvious to me. Enfin. :-[

Luis.

Douglas Kent wrote:

> This rules question comes up quite frequently.  But it has been 
> settled numerous times.  There are two issues at work here.  F Gas 
> **can** support any move into Spain (and yes Luis, Realpolitik shows 
> it as successful, not void, although that should not be your absolute 
> judge on the subject).  This is because F Gas can move to Spain.  The 
> logic behind this is F Gas is capable of disrupting the defenses of 
> Spain, because it can move there.  Coasts are not of importance in 
> this matter.
>  
> The confusion comes in that the reverse is NOT true.  F Spa(sc) cannot 
> support a move into Gascony.  This is because F Spa(sc) cannot move to 
> Gascony.  So it cannot disrupt Gascony's defenses. 
>  
> If you can move to the province (Coasts are not separate provinces) 
> you can support a move into it or support the unit to hold. 
>  
> However, F Gas cannot support F Spa(sc) to Mar.  Because it cannot 
> move there.
>  
> As Luis said, you can generally use Realpolitik for this.  His only 
> mistake is saying the Realpolitik result is Void.  It is not.  The 
> support succeeds.  Go run it, Luis. 
>  
> Of this rule I am 100% secure.
>  
>
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> How can you survive without Helpful Kitty merchandise?  
> http://www.cafepress.com/helpfulkitty
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> --- On Sun, 8/3/08, Luis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>     From: Luis <[email protected]>
>     Subject: Re: [CAT23-Ngame] A rules questions
>     To: "Babak Talebi" <[email protected]>
>     Cc: "1200group" <[email protected]>,
>     [email protected], "Douglas Kent"
>     <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>     Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 5:31 AM
>
>     Void. Gascony does not border Spain/sc and you can only support
>     into provinces you are able to move in directly; for fleet
>     puprposes, that affects to "semi-provinces" (coasts) too. Would it
>     be A Gas S... then it would be perfectly valid.
>
>     In doubt (and only for Standard Dip), run Realpolitik and see what
>     happens. In this case it's void.
>
>     Luis.
>
>
>     Babak Talebi wrote:
>
>>     Friends -
>>
>>     Two dip players of some experience have come to a disagreement on
>>     a rules
>>     question. If you could shed light on this situation, it would be most
>>     appreciated.
>>
>>     *The Situation:*
>>
>>     F Por to Spa(sc)
>>     F Gas S F Por to Spa(sc)
>>
>>     *The Question:*
>>     **
>>     is the order for F Gas *Void* or *Valid*
>>
>>     *The Rules:*
>>
>>     On page 7 in the 4th edition of the rules (
>>     http://www.diplomac y-archive. com/resources/ rulebooks/
>>     2000AH4th. pdf
>>     <http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf>)
>>     two
>>     relevant quotes can be found...
>>
>>     1) "A fleet that can move to a province with two separate coasts
>>     (A fleet
>>     in the Mid-Atlantic for example) can support another Army or
>>     Fleet into that
>>     province (in this case Spain) without regard to separate
>>     coastlines." (2nd
>>     paragraph - 2nd column)
>>
>>     2) "The province to which a unit is providing support must be one
>>     to which
>>     the supporting unit could have legally moved during that turn.
>>     ...Likewise a
>>     Fleet in Rome could not support a unit's move to Venice because,
>>     although
>>     adjacent by land, the Fleet can not move to Venice from Rome." (1st
>>     paragraph - 2nd column)
>>
>>     *The Arguments:*
>>     **
>>     one reading of these rules is that "If you can move to a province
>>     you can
>>     support ANY action in that province. period". ie - the fleet in
>>     Gas can
>>     support Por to Spa(sc) because it can itself move to Spa thus
>>     making the
>>     support order *Valid*.
>>
>>     the second reading is that since Spa(sc) is not a province that the
>>     supporting unit (F Gas) 'could have legally moved' to, it is thus
>>     an illegal
>>     support and therefore *Void*.
>>
>>     I leave this earth-shattering question to these august bodies of
>>     wisdom on
>>     Cat23 and look forward to reading various judicious opinions on the
>>     matter. Has this been resolved elsewhere?
>>
>>     I am told by my fellow diplomacy player that he is 100% positive
>>     of his
>>     position and since I hold him and his experience in high regard, I am
>>     inclined to agree with him - but felt that due to my minor doubt,
>>     I should
>>     consult with the rest of the village elders first. (ps. I still
>>     have not
>>     told you all which position I have taken in this)
>>
>>     Babak
>>
>>     .
>>
>>      
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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            <p>Ok, Doug. I stand corrected. I should have checked RP before posting but <br>
it looked sooo obvious to me. Enfin. :-[<br>
<br>
Luis.<br>
<br>
Douglas Kent wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; This rules question comes up quite frequently.  But it has been <br>
&gt; settled numerous times.  There are two issues at work here.  F Gas <br>
&gt; **can** support any move into Spain (and yes Luis, Realpolitik shows <br>
&gt; it as successful, not void, although that should not be your absolute <br>
&gt; judge on the subject).  This is because F Gas can move to Spain.  The <br>
&gt; logic behind this is F Gas is capable of disrupting the defenses of <br>
&gt; Spain, because it can move there.  Coasts are not of importance in <br>
&gt; this matter.<br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt; The confusion comes in that the reverse is NOT true.  F Spa(sc) cannot <br>
&gt; support a move into Gascony.  This is because F Spa(sc) cannot move to <br>
&gt; Gascony.  So it cannot disrupt Gascony's defenses. <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt; If you can move to the province (Coasts are not separate provinces) <br>
&gt; you can support a move into it or support the unit to hold. <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt; However, F Gas cannot support F Spa(sc) to Mar.  Because it cannot <br>
&gt; move there.<br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt; As Luis said, you can generally use Realpolitik for this.  His only <br>
&gt; mistake is saying the Realpolitik result is Void.  It is not.  The <br>
&gt; support succeeds.  Go run it, Luis. <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt; Of this rule I am 100% secure.<br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt; How can you survive without Helpful Kitty merchandise?  <br>
&gt; <a href="http://www.cafepress.com/helpfulkitty">http://www.cafepres<wbr>s.com/helpfulkit<wbr>ty</a><br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;  <br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --- On Sun, 8/3/08, Luis &lt;<a href="mailto:lialdamiz%40euskalnet.net">lialdamiz@euskalnet<wbr>.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;     From: Luis &lt;<a href="mailto:lialdamiz%40euskalnet.net">lialdamiz@euskalnet<wbr>.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;     Subject: Re: [CAT23-Ngame] A rules questions<br>
&gt;     To: &quot;Babak Talebi&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:babaktalebi%40gmail.com">babaktalebi@<wbr>gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;     Cc: &quot;1200group&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:CAT23-1200%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-1200@yahoogro<wbr>ups.com</a>&gt;,<br>
&gt;     <a href="mailto:Cat23-ngame%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-ngame@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>, &quot;Douglas Kent&quot;<br>
&gt;     &lt;<a href="mailto:diplomacyworld%40yahoo.com">diplomacyworld@<wbr>yahoo.com</a>&gt;, <a href="mailto:dipknight%40yahoogroups.com">dipknight@yahoogrou<wbr>ps.com</a><br>
&gt;     Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 5:31 AM<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;     Void. Gascony does not border Spain/sc and you can only support<br>
&gt;     into provinces you are able to move in directly; for fleet<br>
&gt;     puprposes, that affects to &quot;semi-provinces&quot; (coasts) too. Would it<br>
&gt;     be A Gas S... then it would be perfectly valid.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;     In doubt (and only for Standard Dip), run Realpolitik and see what<br>
&gt;     happens. In this case it's void.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;     Luis.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;     Babak Talebi wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     Friends -<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     Two dip players of some experience have come to a disagreement on<br>
&gt;&gt;     a rules<br>
&gt;&gt;     question. If you could shed light on this situation, it would be most<br>
&gt;&gt;     appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     *The Situation:*<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     F Por to Spa(sc)<br>
&gt;&gt;     F Gas S F Por to Spa(sc)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     *The Question:*<br>
&gt;&gt;     **<br>
&gt;&gt;     is the order for F Gas *Void* or *Valid*<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     *The Rules:*<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     On page 7 in the 4th edition of the rules (<br>
&gt;&gt;     <a href="http://www.diplomac">http://www.diplomac</a> y-archive. com/resources/ rulebooks/<br>
&gt;&gt;     2000AH4th. pdf<br>
&gt;&gt;     &lt;<a href="http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf">http://www.diplomac<wbr>y-archive.<wbr>com/resources/<wbr>rulebooks/<wbr>2000AH4th.<wbr>pdf</a>&gt;)<br>
&gt;&gt;     two<br>
&gt;&gt;     relevant quotes can be found...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     1) &quot;A fleet that can move to a province with two separate coasts<br>
&gt;&gt;     (A fleet<br>
&gt;&gt;     in the Mid-Atlantic for example) can support another Army or<br>
&gt;&gt;     Fleet into that<br>
&gt;&gt;     province (in this case Spain) without regard to separate<br>
&gt;&gt;     coastlines.&quot; (2nd<br>
&gt;&gt;     paragraph - 2nd column)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     2) &quot;The province to which a unit is providing support must be one<br>
&gt;&gt;     to which<br>
&gt;&gt;     the supporting unit could have legally moved during that turn.<br>
&gt;&gt;     ...Likewise a<br>
&gt;&gt;     Fleet in Rome could not support a unit's move to Venice because,<br>
&gt;&gt;     although<br>
&gt;&gt;     adjacent by land, the Fleet can not move to Venice from Rome.&quot; (1st<br>
&gt;&gt;     paragraph - 2nd column)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     *The Arguments:*<br>
&gt;&gt;     **<br>
&gt;&gt;     one reading of these rules is that &quot;If you can move to a province<br>
&gt;&gt;     you can<br>
&gt;&gt;     support ANY action in that province. period&quot;. ie - the fleet in<br>
&gt;&gt;     Gas can<br>
&gt;&gt;     support Por to Spa(sc) because it can itself move to Spa thus<br>
&gt;&gt;     making the<br>
&gt;&gt;     support order *Valid*.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     the second reading is that since Spa(sc) is not a province that the<br>
&gt;&gt;     supporting unit (F Gas) 'could have legally moved' to, it is thus<br>
&gt;&gt;     an illegal<br>
&gt;&gt;     support and therefore *Void*.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     I leave this earth-shattering question to these august bodies of<br>
&gt;&gt;     wisdom on<br>
&gt;&gt;     Cat23 and look forward to reading various judicious opinions on the<br>
&gt;&gt;     matter. Has this been resolved elsewhere?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     I am told by my fellow diplomacy player that he is 100% positive<br>
&gt;&gt;     of his<br>
&gt;&gt;     position and since I hold him and his experience in high regard, I am<br>
&gt;&gt;     inclined to agree with him - but felt that due to my minor doubt,<br>
&gt;&gt;     I should<br>
&gt;&gt;     consult with the rest of the village elders first. (ps. I still<br>
&gt;&gt;     have not<br>
&gt;&gt;     told you all which position I have taken in this)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     Babak<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;     .<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;      <br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
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	</html><!--End group email -->


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