Re: A rules questions
Luis <[email protected]> Sun, 03 Aug 2008 17:58:24 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.new-games,gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.results.twelve-hundred |
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--37x1KZYBmT-6TLGfbZCpdgj7MNKRoaxe3D8ATvQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, Doug. I stand corrected. I should have checked RP before posting but it looked sooo obvious to me. Enfin. :-[ Luis. Douglas Kent wrote: > This rules question comes up quite frequently. But it has been > settled numerous times. There are two issues at work here. F Gas > **can** support any move into Spain (and yes Luis, Realpolitik shows > it as successful, not void, although that should not be your absolute > judge on the subject). This is because F Gas can move to Spain. The > logic behind this is F Gas is capable of disrupting the defenses of > Spain, because it can move there. Coasts are not of importance in > this matter. > > The confusion comes in that the reverse is NOT true. F Spa(sc) cannot > support a move into Gascony. This is because F Spa(sc) cannot move to > Gascony. So it cannot disrupt Gascony's defenses. > > If you can move to the province (Coasts are not separate provinces) > you can support a move into it or support the unit to hold. > > However, F Gas cannot support F Spa(sc) to Mar. Because it cannot > move there. > > As Luis said, you can generally use Realpolitik for this. His only > mistake is saying the Realpolitik result is Void. It is not. The > support succeeds. Go run it, Luis. > > Of this rule I am 100% secure. > > > > > > > > > > How can you survive without Helpful Kitty merchandise? > http://www.cafepress.com/helpfulkitty > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/3/08, Luis <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Luis <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [CAT23-Ngame] A rules questions > To: "Babak Talebi" <[email protected]> > Cc: "1200group" <[email protected]>, > [email protected], "Douglas Kent" > <[email protected]>, [email protected] > Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 5:31 AM > > Void. Gascony does not border Spain/sc and you can only support > into provinces you are able to move in directly; for fleet > puprposes, that affects to "semi-provinces" (coasts) too. Would it > be A Gas S... then it would be perfectly valid. > > In doubt (and only for Standard Dip), run Realpolitik and see what > happens. In this case it's void. > > Luis. > > > Babak Talebi wrote: > >> Friends - >> >> Two dip players of some experience have come to a disagreement on >> a rules >> question. If you could shed light on this situation, it would be most >> appreciated. >> >> *The Situation:* >> >> F Por to Spa(sc) >> F Gas S F Por to Spa(sc) >> >> *The Question:* >> ** >> is the order for F Gas *Void* or *Valid* >> >> *The Rules:* >> >> On page 7 in the 4th edition of the rules ( >> http://www.diplomac y-archive. com/resources/ rulebooks/ >> 2000AH4th. pdf >> <http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf>) >> two >> relevant quotes can be found... >> >> 1) "A fleet that can move to a province with two separate coasts >> (A fleet >> in the Mid-Atlantic for example) can support another Army or >> Fleet into that >> province (in this case Spain) without regard to separate >> coastlines." (2nd >> paragraph - 2nd column) >> >> 2) "The province to which a unit is providing support must be one >> to which >> the supporting unit could have legally moved during that turn. >> ...Likewise a >> Fleet in Rome could not support a unit's move to Venice because, >> although >> adjacent by land, the Fleet can not move to Venice from Rome." (1st >> paragraph - 2nd column) >> >> *The Arguments:* >> ** >> one reading of these rules is that "If you can move to a province >> you can >> support ANY action in that province. period". ie - the fleet in >> Gas can >> support Por to Spa(sc) because it can itself move to Spa thus >> making the >> support order *Valid*. >> >> the second reading is that since Spa(sc) is not a province that the >> supporting unit (F Gas) 'could have legally moved' to, it is thus >> an illegal >> support and therefore *Void*. >> >> I leave this earth-shattering question to these august bodies of >> wisdom on >> Cat23 and look forward to reading various judicious opinions on the >> matter. Has this been resolved elsewhere? >> >> I am told by my fellow diplomacy player that he is 100% positive >> of his >> position and since I hold him and his experience in high regard, I am >> inclined to agree with him - but felt that due to my minor doubt, >> I should >> consult with the rest of the village elders first. (ps. I still >> have not >> told you all which position I have taken in this) >> >> Babak >> >> . >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --37x1KZYBmT-6TLGfbZCpdgj7MNKRoaxe3D8ATvQ Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 470px; margin:0; padding:0 25px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>Ok, Doug. I stand corrected. I should have checked RP before posting but <br> it looked sooo obvious to me. Enfin. :-[<br> <br> Luis.<br> <br> Douglas Kent wrote:<br> <br> > This rules question comes up quite frequently. But it has been <br> > settled numerous times. There are two issues at work here. F Gas <br> > **can** support any move into Spain (and yes Luis, Realpolitik shows <br> > it as successful, not void, although that should not be your absolute <br> > judge on the subject). This is because F Gas can move to Spain. The <br> > logic behind this is F Gas is capable of disrupting the defenses of <br> > Spain, because it can move there. Coasts are not of importance in <br> > this matter.<br> > <br> > The confusion comes in that the reverse is NOT true. F Spa(sc) cannot <br> > support a move into Gascony. This is because F Spa(sc) cannot move to <br> > Gascony. So it cannot disrupt Gascony's defenses. <br> > <br> > If you can move to the province (Coasts are not separate provinces) <br> > you can support a move into it or support the unit to hold. <br> > <br> > However, F Gas cannot support F Spa(sc) to Mar. Because it cannot <br> > move there.<br> > <br> > As Luis said, you can generally use Realpolitik for this. His only <br> > mistake is saying the Realpolitik result is Void. It is not. The <br> > support succeeds. Go run it, Luis. <br> > <br> > Of this rule I am 100% secure.<br> > <br> ><br> ><br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > How can you survive without Helpful Kitty merchandise? <br> > <a href="http://www.cafepress.com/helpfulkitty">http://www.cafepres<wbr>s.com/helpfulkit<wbr>ty</a><br> > <br> > <br> > <br> ><br> ><br> > --- On Sun, 8/3/08, Luis <<a href="mailto:lialdamiz%40euskalnet.net">lialdamiz@euskalnet<wbr>.net</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > From: Luis <<a href="mailto:lialdamiz%40euskalnet.net">lialdamiz@euskalnet<wbr>.net</a>><br> > Subject: Re: [CAT23-Ngame] A rules questions<br> > To: "Babak Talebi" <<a href="mailto:babaktalebi%40gmail.com">babaktalebi@<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br> > Cc: "1200group" <<a href="mailto:CAT23-1200%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-1200@yahoogro<wbr>ups.com</a>>,<br> > <a href="mailto:Cat23-ngame%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-ngame@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>, "Douglas Kent"<br> > <<a href="mailto:diplomacyworld%40yahoo.com">diplomacyworld@<wbr>yahoo.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:dipknight%40yahoogroups.com">dipknight@yahoogrou<wbr>ps.com</a><br> > Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 5:31 AM<br> ><br> > Void. Gascony does not border Spain/sc and you can only support<br> > into provinces you are able to move in directly; for fleet<br> > puprposes, that affects to "semi-provinces" (coasts) too. Would it<br> > be A Gas S... then it would be perfectly valid.<br> ><br> > In doubt (and only for Standard Dip), run Realpolitik and see what<br> > happens. In this case it's void.<br> ><br> > Luis.<br> ><br> ><br> > Babak Talebi wrote:<br> ><br> >> Friends -<br> >><br> >> Two dip players of some experience have come to a disagreement on<br> >> a rules<br> >> question. If you could shed light on this situation, it would be most<br> >> appreciated.<br> >><br> >> *The Situation:*<br> >><br> >> F Por to Spa(sc)<br> >> F Gas S F Por to Spa(sc)<br> >><br> >> *The Question:*<br> >> **<br> >> is the order for F Gas *Void* or *Valid*<br> >><br> >> *The Rules:*<br> >><br> >> On page 7 in the 4th edition of the rules (<br> >> <a href="http://www.diplomac">http://www.diplomac</a> y-archive. com/resources/ rulebooks/<br> >> 2000AH4th. pdf<br> >> <<a href="http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf">http://www.diplomac<wbr>y-archive.<wbr>com/resources/<wbr>rulebooks/<wbr>2000AH4th.<wbr>pdf</a>>)<br> >> two<br> >> relevant quotes can be found...<br> >><br> >> 1) "A fleet that can move to a province with two separate coasts<br> >> (A fleet<br> >> in the Mid-Atlantic for example) can support another Army or<br> >> Fleet into that<br> >> province (in this case Spain) without regard to separate<br> >> coastlines." (2nd<br> >> paragraph - 2nd column)<br> >><br> >> 2) "The province to which a unit is providing support must be one<br> >> to which<br> >> the supporting unit could have legally moved during that turn.<br> >> ...Likewise a<br> >> Fleet in Rome could not support a unit's move to Venice because,<br> >> although<br> >> adjacent by land, the Fleet can not move to Venice from Rome." (1st<br> >> paragraph - 2nd column)<br> >><br> >> *The Arguments:*<br> >> **<br> >> one reading of these rules is that "If you can move to a province<br> >> you can<br> >> support ANY action in that province. period". ie - the fleet in<br> >> Gas can<br> >> support Por to Spa(sc) because it can itself move to Spa thus<br> >> making the<br> >> support order *Valid*.<br> >><br> >> the second reading is that since Spa(sc) is not a province that the<br> >> supporting unit (F Gas) 'could have legally moved' to, it is thus<br> >> an illegal<br> >> support and therefore *Void*.<br> >><br> >> I leave this earth-shattering question to these august bodies of<br> >> wisdom on<br> >> Cat23 and look forward to reading various judicious opinions on the<br> >> matter. Has this been resolved elsewhere?<br> >><br> >> I am told by my fellow diplomacy player that he is 100% positive<br> >> of his<br> >> position and since I hold him and his experience in high regard, I am<br> >> inclined to agree with him - but felt that due to my minor doubt,<br> >> I should<br> >> consult with the rest of the village elders first. (ps. I still<br> >> have not<br> >> told you all which position I have taken in this)<br> >><br> >> Babak<br> >><br> >> .<br> >><br> >> <br> ><br> ><br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/message/6693;_ylc=X3oDMTMzbWMycTlqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNjY5OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3ODA0MzIEdHBjSWQDNjY5Mw--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">6</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvOXA4czhnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNjY5OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3ODA0MzI-?act=reply&messageNum=6698"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbGMwZzlyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjE3NzgwNDMy" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkN2VqZGlmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMjE3NzgwNDMy">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXBqNW5pBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc4MDQzMg--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZzY0N2poBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMjE3NzgwNDMy">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZnMxcjd0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc4MDQzMg--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJiNWg3ZDhxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc4MDQzMg--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbWNvNDQyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc4MDQzMg--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbnFmbmVkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMjE3NzgwNDMy">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjaHBlYWxoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3ODA0MzI-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjcDQwaGNoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3ODA0MzI-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! 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