Re: Water tight opt-in (yet another FUSSP)
"Neil Schwartzman" <[email protected]> 3 Jan 2014 09:42:33 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.asrg |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Apple-Mail=_BA2C86F4-D4F9-4B57-ABF3-10D0CE38A28E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Jan 1, 2014, at 6:19 AM, Alessandro Vesely <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Neil, >=20 > On Tue 31/Dec/2013 19:34:35 +0100 Neil Schwartzman wrote: >>=20 >> I=92d like to ask you a fundamental question - what problem are you = trying >> to solve? >=20 > I'm not sure how to call it, "legitimate spam"? I mean bulk mail, = sent > using true names, possibly authenticated, sometimes wanted. For > example, most web sites require some kind of subscription in order to > post any content (because of web-spam) they may use OpenID, COI, or > whatever, and collect posters' addresses. Those addresses are treated > with varying degrees of conscientiousness by different operators. =20 their systems, their rules. having a verifiable permission token will = not make a jot of difference to any of the big receivers, and I doubt = any of the smaller ones either. I can have confirmed opt-in and still spam a recipient. those =91gift = cards do it all the time. 'Click here to obtain a $25 Best Buy Card=92 = is usually followed by =91confirm your email address and mobile phone = number, so we can provide offers from our partners=92. which is usually = followed with a metric ton of spam (and I use that word advisedly). I can have confirmed opt-in and diverge from the stated intent of my = list, say, cars, now carrying content about every type of car accessory, = because I thought recipients might find that interesting. I can have = confirmed opt-in, and never mention the frequency with which mailings = will take place, then begin sending, on the hour. That=92s spam, too. > The > problem is to allow people to keep control of their mailboxes without > limiting their ability to subscribe at will. >=20 > Does that answer your question? not really, no. what is the problem with subscribing at will? I do it = all the time. Functional unsubscribe is a provision of numerous laws.I may have = confirmed opt-in, but when a recipient says =91stop=92 I am legally = bound to do so; COI doesn=92t trump =91unsubscribe=92 So, unless I=92m missing something here, I don=92t see the problem, let = alone clearly understand the solution.= --Apple-Mail=_BA2C86F4-D4F9-4B57-ABF3-10D0CE38A28E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space;"><br><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><div = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space;"><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div> </div> <br><div><div>On Jan 1, 2014, at 6:19 AM, Alessandro Vesely <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">Hi Neil,</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;"><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: = normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: = normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: = auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">On Tue 31/Dec/2013 19:34:35 +0100 Neil Schwartzman = wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;"><br>I=92d like to ask you a fundamental question - what problem = are you trying<br>to solve?<br></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: = none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = float: none; display: inline !important;">I'm not sure how to call it, = "legitimate spam"? I mean bulk mail, sent</span><br = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: = none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">using true names, possibly authenticated, sometimes wanted. = For</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">example, most web sites require some kind of subscription = in order to</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">post any content (because of web-spam) they may use OpenID, = COI, or</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">whatever, and collect posters' addresses. Those = addresses are treated</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: = none; display: inline !important;">with varying degrees of = conscientiousness by different operators. = </span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>their systems, their = rules. having a verifiable permission token will not make a jot of = difference to any of the big receivers, and I doubt any of the smaller = ones either.</div><div><br></div><div>I can have confirmed opt-in and = still spam a recipient. those =91gift cards do it all the time. 'Click = here to obtain a $25 Best Buy Card=92 is usually followed by =91confirm = your email address and mobile phone number, so we can provide offers = from our partners=92. which is usually followed with a metric ton of = spam (and I use that word advisedly).</div><div><br></div><div>I can = have confirmed opt-in and diverge from the stated intent of my list, = say, cars, now carrying content about every type of car accessory, = because I thought recipients might find that interesting. I can have = confirmed opt-in, and never mention the frequency with which mailings = will take place, then begin sending, on the hour. That=92s spam, = too.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">The</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: = 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">problem is to allow people to keep control of their = mailboxes without</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: = 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline = !important;">limiting their ability to subscribe at will.</span><br = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br style=3D"font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: = none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = float: none; display: inline !important;">Does that answer your = question?</span></blockquote></div><br><div>not really, no. what is the = problem with subscribing at will? I do it all the = time.</div><div><br></div><div>Functional unsubscribe is a provision of = numerous laws.I may have confirmed opt-in, but when a recipient says = =91stop=92 I am legally bound to do so; COI doesn=92t trump = =91unsubscribe=92</div><div><br></div><div>So, unless I=92m missing = something here, I don=92t see the problem, let alone clearly understand = the solution.</div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_BA2C86F4-D4F9-4B57-ABF3-10D0CE38A28E--