[ippm] Re: Joint BMWG/IPPM chartering - implementation polic y

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Dear Sebastian,

That makes perfectly sense to me. An yes, sometimes even small changes shou=
ld be carefully validated in implementation. And yes, making exceptions is =
already something we are used to. With charter we just make it clearer to t=
he newcomers.

Best wishes
Thomas

-----Original Message-----
From: Sebastian Moeller <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2026 8:23 AM
To: Graf Thomas, SCS-INI-NET-VNC-E2E <Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; bmwg@ietf=
.org; [email protected]; [email protected]; mohamed.boucadair@orange.=
com
Subject: Re: [ippm] Joint BMWG/IPPM chartering - implementation policy


Be aware: This is an external email.



Hi Thomas,


> On 13. May 2026, at 07:42, Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected] wrote:
>
> Dear Ruediger,
>  Thats an interesting option. However as a chair my worries with "should"=
 or "is desirable" is how we exercise the policy. Lets assume the document =
requests WGLC and has no implementation and no good reasoning why it doesn'=
t have an implementation. What would be the consequence? Wait for some time=
? How long? And then, if there is still no implementation still go ahead wi=
th WGLC?
>  Prioritizes documents with implementations. For proposed work presentati=
ons it simply means if there isn't enough space in the agenda and the docum=
ent doesn't have an implementation and others already have (there are cases=
 were authors already arrive at the working group with an implementation, b=
elieve me), it won't be on the agenda but there is always the mailing list.=
 If we have multiple document in the queue for adoption or last call, the o=
nes having implementations are picked first. Or last but not least, interim=
 sessions are sometimes chosen to speed up things for a particular document=
 or set of documents, to resolve a problem. We would not do such interims i=
f there are no implementations.  For requiring implementations. This means =
that a document can't get past WGLC without. We chairs would monitor the pr=
ogress of the document and help and support the authors through the working=
 group process by advertising the document to potential implementors for ha=
ckathon activities and give those hackathon activities time on the agenda.
>  That's in a nutshell on top of my head what these options would mean.
>  I personally interpret "should" or "is desirable" as being delayed WGLC =
if there is no implementation. Thoughts?

[SM] Respectfully, it is quite hard to be sure an ID actually handles all r=
elevant cases (and realistic corner-cases) well enough to merit turning it =
into an RFC without actually being tested against "real live networks". Tha=
t implies that an ID with an implementation likely is considerable more rob=
ust than one without. So I would, with the cautious exception of small addi=
tions/changes to existing methods that are unlikely to have side-effects (f=
amous last words), require at least one implementation. Put differently, if=
 not even the authors of an ID can muster the motivation and time to implem=
ent their own design, why expect anybody else to do so, and what use are pu=
rely theoretical RFCs in this space? (Side note, a purely theoretical RFC m=
ight still merit an exception if e.g. it clearly lays out/describes/evaluat=
es the underlaying theory behind different measurement methodology, this is=
 why I fully endorse the approach of explicitly allowing the WG to make exc=
eptions (something I believe a WG has implicitly anyways)).

Regards
        Sebastian


>  Best wishes
> Thomas
>  From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2026 2:30 PM
> To: [email protected]; Graf Thomas, SCS-INI-NET-VNC-E2E
> <Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
> Subject: AW: [ippm] Re: Joint BMWG/IPPM chartering - implementation
> policy  Be aware: This is an external email.
>  Hi Adrian,
>  thanks for pointing out. I failed to say that my "SHOULD" only expresses=
 a charter requirement level from the given options. I do not suggest to ap=
ply BCP14 requirement language in the charter.
>  Regards, Ruediger
>  Von: Adrian Farrel <[email protected]>
> Gesendet: Montag, 11. Mai 2026 13:15
> An: Geib, R=FCdiger <[email protected]>;
> Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
> Betreff: RE: [ippm] Re: Joint BMWG/IPPM chartering - implementation
> policy  May be "is desirable" rather than put BCP14 language in a charter=
?
>  A
>  From: Ruediger.Geib=3D40telekom.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]
> <Ruediger.Geib=3D40telekom.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]>
> Sent: 11 May 2026 12:00
> To: Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
> Subject: [ippm] Re: Joint BMWG/IPPM chartering - implementation policy
> Dear Marcus, Giuseppe, Sarah and Thomas,  I'd prefer option 1. A
> "SHOULD" requirement for an implementation to me would be a clear express=
ion of the WG intent and implicitly include/allow an exception.
>  Regards,
>  Ruediger
>  Von: Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected] <Thomas.Graf-Zc0CTiu5wcBWk0Htik3J/[email protected]>
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. Mai 2026 10:13
> An: [email protected]; [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
> Betreff: [ippm] Joint BMWG/IPPM chartering - implementation policy
> Dear BMWG and IPPM,  We have with
> https://github.com/ietf-ippm/wg-charter/issues/4 a suggestion from Med to=
 consider adding an implementation policy in the join charter proposal.
>  We chairs have been thinking how this could be addressed best in the cha=
rter and came up with the 3 proposals:
>
>     * The WG prioritizes documents with implementations.
>     * The WG requires an implementation for standard track documents. In =
some cases exceptions can be applied. Whenever such an exception applies, t=
he exception justification must be included in the specification document o=
r its write-up.
>     * The WG requires two implementations for standard track documents. I=
n some cases exceptions can be applied. Whenever such an exception applies,=
 the exception justification must be included in the specification document=
 or its write-up.
>  The main differences between the choices are underlined.
>  We would like to have feedback from both working groups on
>
>     * wherever an implementation policy should be added or not
>     * wherever those choices make sense or not
>     * which would be the preferred choice and why
>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7942 is a good quick read in re=
gards to implementations and implementation status section. Rough consensus=
 and running code is part of the IETF DNA. Personally we think it is helpfu=
l for the authors if the working group states what is expected in terms of =
implementations. There are good reasons for having implementations such as =
raising quality of the document and ensure interoperability. But there are =
also reasons to progress quickly. For instance in case where there is only =
a small document update or a security fix.
>  Best wishes
> Marcus, Giuseppe, Sarah and Thomas
>        _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list -- [email protected]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]


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