[ippm] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployme nt-05 (Ends 2026-05-28)

"Pinkert, Tjeerd" <tjeerd.pinkert=40siemens.com-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]> Wed, 27 May 2026 13:09:32 +0000
Newsgroups gmane.ietf.ippm,gmane.ietf.bmwg
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Dear Guiseppe,

OK, so that scenario is possible.
You may notice that I am interested in the network performance from the net=
work user perspective.

It is the question if the user domain could form such a controlled domain, =
and the packets are allowed to travel though a foreign domain.
>From a security perspective, one needs to know one thing: was my packet (th=
e alternate marker) manipulated by the foreign domain?
This can be achieved with cryptographic signatures, so that would need to b=
e designed into the measurement protocols (alternate marker data).
(Removal of alternate marker data is also a manipulation of the packet and =
can be detected by the user.)
I think a controlled user domain would be characterised by a shared secret =
for signing / encryption.

A user on the network edge, owning ten- to hundred-thousand machines formin=
g a distributed system, is a common use-case.
In particular, when the distributed system must be capable of adjusting to =
the network conditions, alternate marking methods could also be used.
Then the use of alternate markers by the user and the network owner should =
not collide.

One (off topic) thing I would be interested in, is what fields are typicall=
y used for alternate marking methods, and if signatures come into question =
for that?

Best regards,


Tjeerd


From: Giuseppe Fioccola <[email protected]>
Sent: Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2026 10:32
To: Pinkert, Tjeerd (SMO RI ML COC SM 2) <[email protected]>; draf=
[email protected]; IPPM Chairs <[email protected]=
>; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (Ends 202=
6-05-28)

Hi Tjeerd,
Thank you for the question.
Yes, it would be possible. But, for security reasons, In-Data-Packet OAM me=
thods, such as Alternate-Marking and IOAM, should be applied to limited/con=
trolled domains. You can find more details about this requirement in RFC 93=
41 and RFC 9197. It was initially discussed in RFC 8799.

Regards,

Giuseppe

From: Pinkert, Tjeerd <[email protected]<mailto:tjeerd.pinkert@sie=
mens.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2026 4:19 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:draft-ietf-ippm-alt=
[email protected]>; IPPM Chairs <[email protected]<mailto:ippm-c=
[email protected]>>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto=
:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (Ends 202=
6-05-28)

Dear all,

I'm just wondering, can internet users form a controlled (boundary) domain =
and apply the alternate marking method independently of the controlled netw=
ork domain?
This should be possible, but is not very deeply explored?
(Or maybe I'm just missing the point, and the remarks on encapsulating traf=
fic cover this sufficiently?)

With best regards,
Dr. Tjeerd Pinkert

Siemens Mobility GmbH
Mobility
Rail Infrastructure
System Management 2
SMO RI ML COC SM 2
Ackerstr. 22
38126 Braunschweig, Germany
Phone: +49 (1520) 2884088
Mobile: +49 (1520) 2884088
mailto:[email protected]
www.siemens.com<https://www.siemens.com>
[Logo]
Siemens Mobility GmbH; Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Roland Busch; Man=
agement Board: Beatrice Bock, Michael Peter; Registered office: Munich, Ger=
many; Commercial registry Munich, HRB 237219; WEEE-Reg.-No. DE 92917817

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dear Guiseppe,<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">OK, so that scenari=
o is possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">You may notice that=
 I am interested in the network performance from the network user perspecti=
ve.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">It is the question =
if the user domain could form such a controlled domain, and the packets are=
 allowed to travel though a foreign domain.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">From a security per=
spective, one needs to know one thing: was my packet (the alternate marker)=
 manipulated by the foreign domain?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">This can be achieve=
d with cryptographic signatures, so that would need to be designed into the=
 measurement protocols (alternate marker data).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">(Removal of alterna=
te marker data is also a manipulation of the packet and can be detected by =
the user.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I think a controlle=
d user domain would be characterised by a shared secret for signing / encry=
ption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">A user on the netwo=
rk edge, owning ten- to hundred-thousand machines forming a distributed sys=
tem, is a common use-case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">In particular, when=
 the distributed system must be capable of adjusting to the network conditi=
ons, alternate marking methods could also be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Then the use of alt=
ernate markers by the user and the network owner should not collide.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">One (off topic) thi=
ng I would be interested in, is what fields are typically used for alternat=
e marking methods, and if signatures come into question for that?<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Best regards,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Tjeerd<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;ms=
o-ligatures:none">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"> Giuseppe Fioccola &lt;[email protected]=
om&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2026 10:32<br>
<b>To:</b> Pinkert, Tjeerd (SMO RI ML COC SM 2) &lt;tjeerd.pinkert@siemens.=
com&gt;; [email protected]; IPPM Chairs &lt;ippm=
[email protected]&gt;; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]<br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (E=
nds 2026-05-28)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi T=
jeerd,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Than=
k you for the question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Yes,=
 it would be possible. But, for security reasons,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
">
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">In-Data-Packet OAM m=
ethods, such as Alternate-Marking and IOAM, should be applied to limited/co=
ntrolled domains. You can find more details about this requirement in RFC 9=
341 and RFC 9197. It was initially discussed
 in RFC 8799.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Rega=
rds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Gius=
eppe<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;ms=
o-ligatures:none">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"> Pinkert, Tjeerd &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:tje=
[email protected]"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso=
-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 20, 2026 4:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment@iet=
f.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">d=
[email protected]</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">;
 IPPM Chairs &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">[email protected]=
rg</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:n=
one">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none">[email protected]</span></a><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:none"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark-deployment-05 (E=
nds 2026-05-28)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dear all,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I&#8217;m just wond=
ering, can internet users form a controlled (boundary) domain and apply the=
 alternate marking method independently of the controlled network domain?<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">This should be poss=
ible, but is not very deeply explored?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">(Or maybe I&#8217;m=
 just missing the point, and the remarks on encapsulating traffic cover thi=
s sufficiently?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none">With best regards,<br>
Dr. Tjeerd Pinkert<br>
<br>
Siemens Mobility GmbH<br>
Mobility<br>
Rail Infrastructure<br>
System Management 2<br>
SMO RI ML COC SM 2<br>
Ackerstr. 22<br>
38126 Braunschweig, Germany<br>
Phone: +49 (1520) 2884088<br>
Mobile: +49 (1520) 2884088<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue;mso-ligatures:none">mailto:tje=
[email protected]</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.siemens.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:blue;mso-ligatures:none">ww=
w.siemens.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none"><br>
<img border=3D"0" width=3D"202" height=3D"80" style=3D"width:2.1041in;heigh=
t:.8333in" id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:[email protected]=
" alt=3D"Logo"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none">Siemens Mobility GmbH; Chairman of the =
Supervisory Board: Roland Busch; Management Board: Beatrice Bock, Michael P=
eter; Registered office: Munich, Germany; Commercial
 registry Munich, HRB 237219; WEEE-Reg.-No. DE 92917817</span><o:p></o:p></=
p>
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