[ippm] Re: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpret ing Packet Loss Observed by Active Performance Measurements
Ruediger.Geib=40telekom.de-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected] Thu, 23 Jul 2026 08:59:17 +0000
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--===============0129970707394549576== Content-Language: de-DE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BEZP281MB20076E0838C1C4090B71C38B9CC02BEZP281MB2007DEUP_" --_000_BEZP281MB20076E0838C1C4090B71C38B9CC02BEZP281MB2007DEUP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Libin, thanks for your draft. The draft discusses the topic quite well, I think. The question I have is addressed to the chairs and community: IPPM is chart= ered to specify metrics and metric measurement metrics. Your draft regards = result interpretation. - interpreting results is the reason, why measurements are collected. - is IPPM (or another IETF WG; if yes, which one) chartered for documentati= on or standardization of doc's as your draft? As my point isn't related to content and rather an organizational question,= I appreciate feedback of others who may be interested in the subject (cont= ent of your draft). Regards, Ruediger Von: Libin Liu <[email protected]> Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Juli 2026 03:54 An: ippm <[email protected]>; bmwg <[email protected]> Betreff: [ippm] Fw: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Packet L= oss Observed by Active Performance Measurements Dear All, Following my previous email, I would like to share a more detailed set of s= lides introducing draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations. The presentati= on provides more background on the motivation, the interpretation problem, = and the overall framework discussed in the draft. The slides are available in the GitHub repo: https://github.com/LibinLiu018= 9/draft-ippm-active-loss-considerations/blob/main/slides-ippm-active-loss-c= onsiderations-00.pdf If the topic is of interest, I would appreciate any comments or feedback. I= would also be happy to discuss the work, either in Vienna during IETF 126 = or online. Thank you very much. Best, Libin ________________________________ From: Libin Liu <liulb=3D40zgclab.edu.cn-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]<mailto:liulb=3D40zg= clab.edu.cn-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]>> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2026 9:30 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]= >>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]= >> Subject: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Packet Loss Observe= d by Active Performance Measurements Dear All, I would like to draw your attention to a new draft that has recently been s= ubmitted: draft-liu-ippm-active-measurement-loss-considerations-00. This document discusses considerations for interpreting packet loss observe= d by active performance measurements. While measurement protocols and metri= cs accurately report observable outcomes such as packet loss, missing respo= nses, delay, and delay variation, these observations alone often do not rev= eal the underlying operational cause. Similar measurement results may arise= from different conditions, including congestion, forwarding failures, rout= ing changes, filtering policies, endpoint behavior, multipath forwarding, o= r validation-related packet discard. The document proposes a common interpretation framework that distinguishes = measured outcomes from inferred causes. It discusses how different operatio= nal conditions may affect the interpretation of packet loss, delay, and del= ay variation in active performance measurements, including one-way and two-= way measurements, OWAMP, TWAMP, STAMP, and measurements over ECMP and link = aggregation. The document also discusses how additional operational context= may assist operators and measurement systems in reasoning about possible e= xplanations for observed measurement results. The draft is available here: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations/= . The GitHub repository for the draft is also available here for issues, co= mments, and pull requests: https://github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-activ= e-loss-considerations. Comments, suggestions, and discussions would be greatly appreciated. I woul= d also be interested to hear whether similar interpretation challenges have= been encountered in operational deployments or existing measurement system= s, and whether there are additional scenarios that should be considered in = the document. Thank you very much. Best, Libin > -----Original Messages----- > From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Send time:Wednesday, 01/07/2026 17:09:28 > To: "Libin Liu" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-consider= ations-00.txt > > A new version of Internet-Draft > draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.txt has been successfully > submitted by Libin Liu and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations > Revision: 00 > Title: Considerations for Interpreting Packet Loss Observed by Active = Performance Measurements > Date: 2026-07-01 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 30 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-cons= iderations-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-con= siderations/ > HTML: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-cons= iderations-00.html > HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-liu-ippm-active-los= s-considerations > > > Abstract: > > Active performance measurement protocols and metrics are commonly > used to measure packet loss, delay, delay variation, reachability, > and path behavior. When an active measurement packet is not > received, a response is missing, or a measurement exchange times out, > the measurement result identifies the observable outcome but often > does not identify the underlying cause. > > Loss observed by active performance measurements can be associated > with congestion, queue discard, link or forwarding failures, routing > changes, endpoint or reflector behavior, administrative filtering, > policing, multipath effects, or validation-related packet discard > such as Source Address Validation (SAV). Different operational > conditions can produce similar measurement observations, but they may > have different meanings and require different troubleshooting > actions. > > This document discusses considerations for interpreting packet loss > observed by active performance measurements. It provides a common > set of considerations for separating measured outcomes from inferred > causes, describes operational conditions that can lead to observed > loss, discusses implications for one-way and two-way measurements, > delay and delay variation interpretation, OWAMP, TWAMP, STAMP, and > measurements over ECMP and link aggregation. It also discusses how > some considerations may apply to hybrid and passive performance > measurements and identifies sources of operational context that can > help operators and measurement systems reason about possible > explanations. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > _______________________________________________ bmwg mailing list -- [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:bmwg-leave@ietf.= org> --_000_BEZP281MB20076E0838C1C4090B71C38B9CC02BEZP281MB2007DEUP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Aptos;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ligatures:none;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 2.0cm 70.85pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-w= ord"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Libin,= <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs= p;</o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">thanks for your draft. The draft discusses the topic quite well, I th= ink.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">The question I have is addressed to the chairs and community: IPPM is= chartered to specify metrics and metric measurement metrics. Your draft re= gards result interpretation.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">- interpreting results is the reason, why measurements are collected. <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">- is IPPM (or another IETF WG; if yes, which one) chartered for docum= entation or standardization of doc’s as your draft?<o:p></o:p></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">As my point isn’t related to content and rather an organization= al question, I appreciate feedback of others who may be interested in the s= ubject (content of your draft).<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">Ruediger<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri",sans-serif">Von:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;f= ont-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Libin Liu <liu.libin@outlook= .com> <br> <b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 14. Juli 2026 03:54<br> <b>An:</b> ippm <[email protected]>; bmwg <[email protected]><br> <b>Betreff:</b> [ippm] Fw: [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting P= acket Loss Observed by Active Performance Measurements<o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Following my previous em= ail, I would like to share a more detailed set of slides introducing draft-= liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations. The presentation provides more backgro= und on the motivation, the interpretation problem, and the overall framework discussed in the draft.<o:p></o:p></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">The slides are available= in the GitHub repo: <a href=3D"https://github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-active-loss-considera= tions/blob/main/slides-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.pdf"> https://github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-active-loss-considerations/blob/= main/slides-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">If the topic is of inter= est, I would appreciate any comments or feedback. I would also be happy to = discuss the work, either in Vienna during IETF 126 or online.<o:p></o:p></s= pan></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Thank you very much.<o:p= ></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Libin<o:p></o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"> <hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center"> </div> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-= size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Libin = Liu <<a href=3D"mailto:liulb=3D40zgclab.edu.cn-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]">liulb=3D4= 0zgclab.edu.cn-Tr9gZwTxerDR74oF6e/[email protected]</a>><br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 2, 2026 9:30 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:bm= [email protected]">[email protected]</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> [bmwg] New ID: Considerations for Interpreting Packet Loss = Observed by Active Performance Measurements<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Dear All,<br> <br> I would like to draw your attention to a new draft that has recently been s= ubmitted: draft-liu-ippm-active-measurement-loss-considerations-00.<br> <br> This document discusses considerations for interpreting packet loss observe= d by active performance measurements. While measurement protocols and metri= cs accurately report observable outcomes such as packet loss, missing respo= nses, delay, and delay variation, these observations alone often do not reveal the underlying operational ca= use. Similar measurement results may arise from different conditions, inclu= ding congestion, forwarding failures, routing changes, filtering policies, = endpoint behavior, multipath forwarding, or validation-related packet discard. <br> <br> The document proposes a common interpretation framework that distinguishes = measured outcomes from inferred causes. It discusses how different operatio= nal conditions may affect the interpretation of packet loss, delay, and del= ay variation in active performance measurements, including one-way and two-way measurements, OWAMP, TWAMP, ST= AMP, and measurements over ECMP and link aggregation. The document also dis= cusses how additional operational context may assist operators and measurem= ent systems in reasoning about possible explanations for observed measurement results. The draft is available here= : <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-co= nsiderations/"> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations/= </a>. The GitHub repository for the draft is also available here for issues= , comments, and pull requests: <a href=3D"https://github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-active-loss-considera= tions">https://github.com/LibinLiu0189/draft-ippm-active-loss-consideration= s</a>.<br> <br> Comments, suggestions, and discussions would be greatly appreciated. I woul= d also be interested to hear whether similar interpretation challenges have= been encountered in operational deployments or existing measurement system= s, and whether there are additional scenarios that should be considered in the document.<br> <br> Thank you very much.<br> <br> <br> Best,<br> Libin<br> <br> > -----Original Messages-----<br> > From: <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">internet-drafts@ietf= .org</a><br> > Send time:Wednesday, 01/07/2026 17:09:28<br> > To: "Libin Liu" <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">l= [email protected]</a>><br> > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-consi= derations-00.txt<br> ><br> > A new version of Internet-Draft<br> > draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.txt has been successfully= <br> > submitted by Libin Liu and posted to the<br> > IETF repository.<br> ><br> > Name: draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-consideration= s<br> > Revision: 00<br> > Title: Considerations for Interpreting Packet Loss O= bserved by Active Performance Measurements<br> > Date: 2026-07-01<br> > Group: Individual Submission<br> > Pages: 30<br> > URL: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/arc= hive/id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.txt"> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-0= 0.txt</a><br> > Status: <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-= liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations/"> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations/= </a><br> > HTML: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/= id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-00.html"> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerations-0= 0.html</a><br> > HTMLized: <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-liu-i= ppm-active-loss-considerations"> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-liu-ippm-active-loss-considerat= ions</a><br> ><br> ><br> > Abstract:<br> ><br> > Active performance measurement protocols and metrics= are commonly<br> > used to measure packet loss, delay, delay variation,= reachability,<br> > and path behavior. When an active measurement = packet is not<br> > received, a response is missing, or a measurement ex= change times out,<br> > the measurement result identifies the observable out= come but often<br> > does not identify the underlying cause.<br> ><br> > Loss observed by active performance measurements can= be associated<br> > with congestion, queue discard, link or forwarding f= ailures, routing<br> > changes, endpoint or reflector behavior, administrat= ive filtering,<br> > policing, multipath effects, or validation-related p= acket discard<br> > such as Source Address Validation (SAV). Diffe= rent operational<br> > conditions can produce similar measurement observati= ons, but they may<br> > have different meanings and require different troubl= eshooting<br> > actions.<br> ><br> > This document discusses considerations for interpret= ing packet loss<br> > observed by active performance measurements. I= t provides a common<br> > set of considerations for separating measured outcom= es from inferred<br> > causes, describes operational conditions that can le= ad to observed<br> > loss, discusses implications for one-way and two-way= measurements,<br> > delay and delay variation interpretation, OWAMP, TWA= MP, STAMP, and<br> > measurements over ECMP and link aggregation. I= t also discusses how<br> > some considerations may apply to hybrid and passive = performance<br> > measurements and identifies sources of operational c= ontext that can<br> > help operators and measurement systems reason about = possible<br> > explanations.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > The IETF Secretariat<br> ><br> _______________________________________________<br> bmwg mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">bmwg= [email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </body> </html> --_000_BEZP281MB20076E0838C1C4090B71C38B9CC02BEZP281MB2007DEUP_-- --===============0129970707394549576== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KaXBwbSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QgLS0gaXBwbUBpZXRmLm9yZwpUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSBzZW5kIGFuIGVtYWlsIHRv IGlwcG0tbGVhdmVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK --===============0129970707394549576==--