[dhcwg] Re: [v6ops] Re: Re: Re: [IPv6]Re: An droid now supports DHCPv6 PD
Daryll Swer <[email protected]> Tue, 16 Sep 2025 18:37:33 +0530
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.dhc,gmane.ietf.v6ops |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CACyFTPFwOdo3PMt6ddhCksF+x69PUQ4-ro6fv3P=D-2DOUE_Sw@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============7983236351606290381== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e663b4063eeacfcd" --000000000000e663b4063eeacfcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lorenzo >From the perspective of a network operator, how do I verify the Android devices are actually making use of the PD they leased from the network? And how they sub-lease it, if they are doing that in some cases. For instance, in my personal home lab, I do /64 PD in addition to SLAAC, and some Android devices from other users indeed pulls a /64 lease, which I can see on my router/DHCPv6 server. But no traffic ever flows in/out of the delegated PD, the devices appear to pull the lease and then proceed to do nothing. These are non-AOSP Android devices, so it probably varies by many of the various Android OEM implementations. For example, Xiaomi devices floods my VLAN with Router Advertisements! *--* Best Regards Daryll Swer Website: daryllswer.com <https://l.shortlink.es/l/d23649aed4c2ecb19e878bc80984f94257888400?u=3D2153= 471> On Tue, 16 Sept 2025 at 18:08, Daryll Swer <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm working on an IPv6 deployment right now where I accounted for RFC9663 > or simply in other words: ia_pd on endpoints. > > I'm doing /38 per campus, /51 per VLAN, /60 per endpoint, 512 devices per > VLAN, 8192 VLANs/VNIs. > > The reason for /60s is an edge case involving users with compute nodes an= d > their own hypervisors. If I exclude this factor, then /64 per endpoint is > sufficient in other more common scenarios. > > -- > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 at 5:19=E2=80=AFPM, Mark Smith <[email protected]= m> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On Tue, 16 Sept 2025 at 19:05, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo=3D >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Recommendations for network operators are written in RFC 9663. Some tex= t >>> about expected prefix lengths is in section 8 of that RFC. RFC 9762 say= s >>> the prefix must be SLAAC-sized, which currently means it must be a /64 = per >>> device. A /48 is fine for a small or medium network, but a campus with = tens >>> of thousands of devices on it probably needs more than that. >>> >> >> I would assume (and I'm interested to find out otherwise) that once a >> network gets to say 30K hosts, then they've moved to BGP as their main >> routing protocol. 65 536 /64 routes in BGP is a walk in the park, so a /= 48 >> for a network of say 50K hosts each with is own /64 and 15K /64s left ov= er >> for everything else would seem to be a large network. In other words, I >> think a /48 would suit all but the largest networks. >> >> Are there large enterprise or university networks with 10s of 1000s of >> hosts that aren't using BGP (yet?). >> >> Regards, >> Mark. >> >> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM Tim Chown <Tim.Chown=3D >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Good news, thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What=E2=80=99s the recommended deployment model for PD to the host in = a campus >>>> WiFi scenario? I can certainly see advantages for it, as you=E2=80= =99ve >>>> highlighted in your email. The linked article explains =E2=80=9Cwhat = this means >>>> for app developers=E2=80=9D but a =E2=80=9Cwhat this means for enterpr= ise/campus network >>>> operators=E2=80=9D would be useful. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is it a given that in a middling or large campus the operator will nee= d >>>> to now receive more than a /48 from their NREN? Or was that always to= o >>>> cautious? A small but growing number here are obtaining LIR status >>>> directly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/09/2025, 09:49, "Lorenzo Colitti" <lorenzo=3D >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There was a typo in the original post. It was fixed earlier today; it >>>> now says "Android 11 and above" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 3:21=E2=80=AFPM Maciej =C5=BBenczykowski <maze= =3D >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> There's a reddit thread: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/1nhzsst/android_developers_b= log_simplifying_advanced/ >>>> <https://l.shortlink.es/l/94320df07ba30152b776a3bb291de9de682ecb31?u= =3D2153471> >>>> >>>> First comment: >>>> >>>> There's a mistake in the page: running Android and above before the >>>> end of the year via a Google Play System Update. >>>> >>>> Which version? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 3:59=E2=80=AFAM Stan Barber <[email protected]> w= rote: >>>> > >>>> > Congrats! >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 6:32=E2=80=AFPM Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo=3D >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> FYI, we announced DHCPv6 PD support on Android today: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2025/09/simplifying-advanced= -networking-with.html >>>> <https://l.shortlink.es/l/e1fede7071e6cf4b46d6593b2ad9cd6dd3156bfa?u= =3D2153471> >>>> >> >>>> >> This change should already be live on most Android devices running >>>> Android 11 and above. Specifically: >>>> >> >>>> >> RFC 9762: if the P flag is set, the device will ask for a >>>> SLAAC-sized prefix, and if it gets it, use it to form addresses. Some >>>> devices will also disable SLAAC as per the SHOULD in the RFC. Not all >>>> devices will support this because it requires a kernel change which wi= ll be >>>> rolling out over the coming months. In future releases, we expect that= the >>>> prefix will be shared with downstream devices, wearable devices, VMs, = etc. >>>> >> Heuristic: if the device obtains a default route but not PIO, it >>>> will ask for a prefix, and if it gets it, use it to form addresses. Th= is >>>> allows DHCPv6-only networks to support Android devices today without h= aving >>>> to upgrade their routers to set the P flag. >>>> >> >>>> >> Over the next few months we also plan to roll out support for DHCPv= 6 >>>> address registration (RFC 9686). >>>> >> >>>> >> I would like to thank everyone who contributed to RFC 9663, RFC 976= 2 >>>> and RFC 9686. We think that DHCPv6 PD is *better* than either SLAAC or >>>> IA_NA, because it allows the device to provide end-to-end connectivity= to >>>> unlimited devices, containers, VMs etc. without scaling load on the >>>> network. Plus the prefix can be tracked and managed by the operator, w= hich >>>> means that it should be possible to deploy it in networks that require >>>> DHCPv6 or that have scaling issues dealing with many addresses. We hop= e >>>> that this will allow at least some enterprise operators to deploy IPv6= to >>>> Android devices. >>>> >> >>>> >> Cheers, >>>> >> Lorenzo >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> v6ops mailing list -- [email protected] >>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>> > >>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > List Info: https://mailman3.ietf.org/mailman3/lists/[email protected]/ >>>> <https://l.shortlink.es/l/8c35987be16c96d285bacf1db33a24154967198a?u= =3D2153471> >>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Maciej =C5=BBenczykowski, Kernel Networking Developer @ Google >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> dhcwg mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> > [image: 9eb9e675cfd5983f2907e91254d424679cc4450a] --000000000000e663b4063eeacfcd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Lorenzo</div><div><br></div><div>Fro= m the perspective of a network operator, how do I verify the Android device= s are actually making use of the PD they leased from the network? And how t= hey sub-lease it, if they are doing that in some cases.</div><div><br></div= ><div>For instance, in my personal home lab, I do /64 PD in addition to SLA= AC, and some Android devices from other users indeed pulls a /64 lease, whi= ch I can see on my router/DHCPv6 server.</div><div><br></div><div>But no tr= affic ever flows in/out of the delegated PD, the devices appear to pull the= lease and then proceed to do nothing. These are non-AOSP Android devices, = so it probably varies by many of the various Android OEM implementations. F= or example, Xiaomi devices floods my VLAN with Router Advertisements!</div>= <div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><font colo= r=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br><b>--</b><br></font><div><font= color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Best Regards</font></div><div= ><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Daryll Swer</font></div= ><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Website: <a href= =3D"https://l.shortlink.es/l/d23649aed4c2ecb19e878bc80984f94257888400?u=3D2= 153471" target=3D"_blank">daryllswer.com</a></font></div></div></div></div>= <br></div><br><img width=3D"0" height=3D"0" class=3D"mailtrack-img" alt=3D"= " style=3D"display:flex" src=3D"https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/6f8e94cfd70= 9b3809f940b1e5f6a3de84eb437cd.png?u=3D2153471"><div class=3D"gmail_quote gm= ail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 16 Sept = 2025 at 18:08, Daryll Swer <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">co= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204= );padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">I'm working on an IPv6 deployment= right now where I accounted for RFC9663 or simply in other words: ia_pd on= endpoints.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I'm doin= g /38 per campus, /51 per VLAN, /60 per endpoint, 512 devices per VLAN, 819= 2 VLANs/VNIs.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The reason= for /60s is an edge case involving users with compute nodes and their own = hypervisors. If I exclude this factor, then /64 per endpoint is sufficient = in other more common scenarios.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir= =3D"auto">--<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my iPhone</div></div></div><div><br></d= iv><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr= ">On Tue, 16 Sep 2025 at 5:19=E2=80=AFPM, Mark Smith <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wr= ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px= 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D= "ltr"><div>Hi,</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 16 Sept 2025 at 19:05, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo= =3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">40googl= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204= );padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Recommendations for network operators = are written in RFC 9663. Some text about expected prefix lengths is in sect= ion 8 of that RFC.=C2=A0RFC 9762 says the prefix must be SLAAC-sized, which= currently means it must be a /64 per device. A /48 is fine for a small or = medium network, but a campus with tens of thousands of devices on it probab= ly needs more than that.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would assu= me (and I'm interested to find out otherwise) that once a network gets = to say 30K hosts, then they've moved to BGP as their main routing proto= col. 65 536 /64 routes in BGP is a walk in the park, so a /48 for a network= of say 50K hosts each with is own /64 and 15K /64s left over for everythin= g else would seem to be a large network. In other words, I think a /48 woul= d suit all but the largest networks.</div><div><br></div><div>Are there lar= ge enterprise or university networks with 10s of 1000s of hosts that aren&#= 39;t using BGP (yet?).</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Mark.</d= iv><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0= px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blo= ckquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote= class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so= lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM Ti= m Chown <Tim.Chown=3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targ= et=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquo= te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px = solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> <div lang=3D"EN-GB"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Hi,<u></u><u></u></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>= </u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Good news, thank= s.<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>= </u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">What=E2=80=99s t= he recommended deployment model for PD to the host in a campus WiFi scenari= o?=C2=A0 =C2=A0I can certainly see advantages for it, as you=E2=80=99ve hig= hlighted in your email.=C2=A0 The linked article explains =E2=80=9Cwhat thi= s means for app developers=E2=80=9D but a =E2=80=9Cwhat this means for enterprise/= campus network operators=E2=80=9D would be useful.<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>= </u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Is it a given th= at in a middling or large campus the operator will need to now receive more= than a /48 from their NREN?=C2=A0 Or was that always too cautious?=C2=A0 A= small but growing number here are obtaining LIR status directly.<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>= </u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Tim </span><span= style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /span></p> <div id=3D"m_-3964745720828426401m_-833225765747126784m_-890235452402155451= 2m_7788389079499085868mail-editor-reference-message-container"> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On 16/09/2025, 09:49, &qu= ot;Lorenzo Colitti" <lorenzo=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc= .ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u><= /u><u></u></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">There was a typo in the o= riginal post. It was fixed earlier today; it now says "Android 11 and = above"<u></u><u></u></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 3= :21<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=AF</span>PM Maciej = =C5=BBenczykowski <maze=3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u>= </p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:non= e none none solid;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0c= m;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">There's a reddit thre= ad:<br> <br> <a href=3D"https://l.shortlink.es/l/94320df07ba30152b776a3bb291de9de682ecb3= 1?u=3D2153471" target=3D"_blank">https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/= 1nhzsst/android_developers_blog_simplifying_advanced/</a><br> <br> First comment:<br> <br> There's a mistake in the page: running Android and above before the<br> end of the year via a Google Play System Update.<br> <br> Which version?<br> <br> <br> On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 3:59<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">= =E2=80=AF</span>AM Stan Barber <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= =3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Congrats!<br> ><br> > On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 6:32<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-seri= f">=E2=80=AF</span>PM Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40goo= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&g= t; wrote:<br> >><br> >> FYI, we announced DHCPv6 PD support on Android today:<br> >><br> >> <a href=3D"https://l.shortlink.es/l/e1fede7071e6cf4b46d6593b2ad9cd= 6dd3156bfa?u=3D2153471" target=3D"_blank"> https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2025/09/simplifying-advanced-netw= orking-with.html</a><br> >><br> >> This change should already be live on most Android devices running= Android 11 and above. Specifically:<br> >><br> >> RFC 9762: if the P flag is set, the device will ask for a SLAAC-si= zed prefix, and if it gets it, use it to form addresses. Some devices will = also disable SLAAC as per the SHOULD in the RFC. Not all devices will suppo= rt this because it requires a kernel change which will be rolling out over the coming months. In future releases, we e= xpect that the prefix will be shared with downstream devices, wearable devi= ces, VMs, etc.<br> >> Heuristic: if the device obtains a default route but not PIO, it w= ill ask for a prefix, and if it gets it, use it to form addresses. This all= ows DHCPv6-only networks to support Android devices today without having to= upgrade their routers to set the P flag.<br> >><br> >> Over the next few months we also plan to roll out support for DHCP= v6 address registration (RFC 9686).<br> >><br> >> I would like to thank everyone who contributed to RFC 9663, RFC 97= 62 and RFC 9686. We think that DHCPv6 PD is *better* than either SLAAC or I= A_NA, because it allows the device to provide end-to-end connectivity to un= limited devices, containers, VMs etc. without scaling load on the network. Plus the prefix can be tracked and ma= naged by the operator, which means that it should be possible to deploy it = in networks that require DHCPv6 or that have scaling issues dealing with ma= ny addresses. We hope that this will allow at least some enterprise operators to deploy IPv6 to Android de= vices.<br> >><br> >> Cheers,<br> >> Lorenzo<br> >> _______________________________________________<br> >> v6ops mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"= _blank">[email protected]</a><br> >> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-leave@ietf= .org" target=3D"_blank"> [email protected]</a><br> ><br> > --------------------------------------------------------------------<b= r> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br> > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><b= r> > List Info: <a href=3D"https://l.shortlink.es/l/8c35987be16c96d285bacf1= db33a24154967198a?u=3D2153471" target=3D"_blank"> https://mailman3.ietf.org/mailman3/lists/[email protected]/</a><br> > --------------------------------------------------------------------<b= r> <br> --<br> Maciej =C5=BBenczykowski, Kernel Networking Developer @ Google<u></u><u></u= ></p> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div></blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br></blockquote></div></div= ><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204= );padding-left:1ex"> dhcwg mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">d= [email protected]</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" tar= get=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> </blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> v6ops mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">v= [email protected]</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" tar= get=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> </blockquote></div></div><span><span style=3D"display:none"><img alt=3D"9eb= 9e675cfd5983f2907e91254d424679cc4450a" src=3D"data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODl= hAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" width=3D"0" height=3D"0"= ></span></span> </blockquote></div></div> --000000000000e663b4063eeacfcd-- --===============7983236351606290381== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KZGhjd2cgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0IC0tIGRoY3dnQGlldGYub3JnClRvIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlIHNlbmQgYW4gZW1haWwg dG8gZGhjd2ctbGVhdmVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK --===============7983236351606290381==--