Re: Dealing with LLMs in IETF discussions draft

--000000000000e26ead0657e90cdb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Jul 31, 2026 at 6:43=E2=80=AFAM Orie <[email protected]> wrote:

> What do you mean by "know how to interpret"?
>
> Do you mean:
>
> 1. That you can't understand the point they are making?
> 2. That you don't believe they are actually aware of the point they are
> making?
> 3. That you don't want to deal with this problem?
>
> 3 is not something the IETF can help with imo.
> 2 is not actually a new problem, but its scale has been massively
> amplified.
> 1 is also not a new problem, but it is one that AI can help with : )
>
> I have an even more cynical answer for 2: who cares?
>

Not speaking for Stephen, of course but I have my own pov separate from
these 3 that I touched on earlier:

I don=E2=80=99t think the problem is so much about if the person on the oth=
er end
fully understands the point they are making if the solution is sound and
makes sense. The real friction comes from when you can=E2=80=99t tell if a
participant=E2=80=99s apparently obvious misunderstanding of a technical pr=
oblem is
simply a lack of teachable context and framing, or if it=E2=80=99s just a m=
achine
that can never actually properly absorb corrective input in the first
place.

This matters because a determined human aiming to make the internet better
may still disagree with you, but will absorb your input. They are unlikely
to repeat confused arguments the same way 2 days from now in basically the
same way. I=E2=80=99ve interacted with a few participants where the latter =
happens
and it makes all the time and effort feel like a waste.

Or that I wish I spent more time speaking to the room rather than the
participant, which is sometimes what I do after reaching a certain
conclusion. Which in itself creates what might otherwise be avoidable
noise.

Being able to tell how much real human attention is =E2=80=9Cin the loop=E2=
=80=9D is what I
imagine Stephen may be hoping to achieve. In any case, the above is an
example of the challenges I=E2=80=99ve personally encountered on list.

Cheers,
Nathanael



>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2026 at 6:37=E2=80=AFAM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@=
cs.tcd.ie>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> On 31/07/2026 12:31, Orie wrote:
>> > It sounds like the goal is more effective use of AI in IETF
>> > discussions.
>>
>> Yes, that is my co-author Frank's goal. It is not mine. My
>> high level goal in this is to know how to interpret messages
>> emitted by others in IETF discussions, despite use of AI.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>>

--000000000000e26ead0657e90cdb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">On Fri, Jul 31, 2026 at 6:43=E2=80=AFAM Orie &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">What do you mean by &quot;kno=
w how to interpret&quot;?<br><br>Do you mean:<br><br>1. That you=C2=A0can&#=
39;t understand the point they are making?<br>2. That you don&#39;t believe=
 they are actually aware of the point they are making?<br>3. That you don&#=
39;t want to deal with this problem?<br><br>3 is not something the IETF can=
 help with imo.<br>2 is not actually a new problem, but its scale has been =
massively amplified.<br>1 is also not a new problem, but it is one that AI =
can help with : )<br><br>I have an even more cynical answer for 2: who care=
s?<br></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div></blockquote><div dir=3D=
"auto">Not speaking for Stephen, of course but I have my own pov separate f=
rom these 3 that I touched on earlier:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">I don=E2=80=99t think the problem is so much about if the pe=
rson on the other end fully understands the point they are making if the so=
lution is sound and makes sense. The real friction comes from when you can=
=E2=80=99t tell if a participant=E2=80=99s apparently obvious misunderstand=
ing of a technical problem is simply a lack of teachable context and framin=
g, or if it=E2=80=99s just a machine that can never actually properly absor=
b corrective input in the first place.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">This matters because a determined human aiming to make=
 the internet better may still disagree with you, but will absorb your inpu=
t. They are unlikely to repeat confused arguments the same way 2 days from =
now in basically the same way. I=E2=80=99ve interacted with a few participa=
nts where the latter happens and it makes all the time and effort feel like=
 a waste.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Or that =
I wish I spent more time speaking to the room rather than the participant, =
which is sometimes what I do after reaching a certain conclusion. Which in =
itself creates what might otherwise be avoidable noise.=C2=A0</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Being able to tell=C2=A0how much real=
 human attention is =E2=80=9Cin the loop=E2=80=9D is what I imagine Stephen=
 may be hoping to achieve. In any case, the above is an example of the chal=
lenges I=E2=80=99ve personally encountered on list.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Nathanael<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></blockquote=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 31, 2026 at 6:37=
=E2=80=AFAM Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]=
" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hiya,<br>
<br>
On 31/07/2026 12:31, Orie wrote:<br>
&gt; It sounds like the goal is more effective use of AI in IETF<br>
&gt; discussions.<br>
<br>
Yes, that is my co-author Frank&#39;s goal. It is not mine. My<br>
high level goal in this is to know how to interpret messages<br>
emitted by others in IETF discussions, despite use of AI.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
S.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000e26ead0657e90cdb--