Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
"Doug Ewell" <[email protected]> Sun, 24 Nov 2019 16:07:18 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.languages |
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Christian Galinski wrote:
=EF=BF=BD
> In any case, the issue of =E2=80=9Csigning=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =
including dialects, levels of
> performance, combinations of regional variants, etc. =E2=80=93 is more =
complex
> than can be dealt with in the ISO 639 series. Furthermore, similar
> phenomena exist for drummed, whistled, haptic (and other languages and
> language modalities), which may have to be considered in the future.
> [Particularly in the field of education (and assistive technologies
> applied to support interhuman communication) there is a lot of
> development in this direction.]
=EF=BF=BD
BCP 47, at least, doesn=E2=80=99t try to cover all of the modality =
possibilities that are covered by, for example, the ISO/TC 37/SC 2 NWIP =
=E2=80=9CIdentification and description of language varieties,=E2=80=9D =
which was voted on in 2016 and which also attempts to cover regional =
spoken accents, time frames, proficiency levels, speech impairments, =
=E2=80=9Cmotherese,=E2=80=9D and much more.
=EF=BF=BD
If there is a standard (or part) on the horizon that will provide a =
coded representation of modalities in a way that is compatible with =
other ISO 639 parts, and could conceivably be made to work within BCP =
47, then I would argue strongly against trying to extend BCP 47 or any =
other ISO 639 part to accommodate this. Otherwise we will have duplicate =
coding, with all the confusion that duplicate coding normally brings.
=EF=BF=BD
Note that the NWIP, as of 2016, offered no code elements, nor any clues =
as to how code elements would be formulated, what they would look like, =
or where or how the list of code elements would be maintained, making =
the proposal unsuitable for discussion in the context of BCP 47.
=EF=BF=BD
> b. =E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D attributed to a language identifier of an =
individual language
> (not being a sign language) could indicate one or the other kind of
> =E2=80=9Csigned language variety=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 e.g. (in ISO 639) =
=E2=80=9Ceng-sgn=E2=80=9D =3D English in
> signed language variety and =E2=80=93 if differentiation necessary =
=E2=80=93
> =E2=80=9Ceng-UK-sgn=E2=80=9D British English in signed language =
variety
> c. =E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D attributed to a language identifier of an =
=E2=80=9Cindividual sign
> language=E2=80=9D could be used to make individual sign languages =
identifiable
> and searchable =E2=80=93 e.g. (in ISO 639) =E2=80=9Case-sgn=E2=80=9D =
=3D American Sign Language
> (ASL) and =E2=80=93 if differentiation is necessary =E2=80=93 =
=E2=80=9Case-CA-sgn=E2=80=9D Canadian
> variant of American Sign Language
> =EF=BF=BD
> If this use of =E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D is not useful/reasonable for ISO =
639 principles,
> please feel free to suggest alternatives.
=EF=BF=BD
My understanding of ISO 639 is that combination of code elements like =
this is not within its domain, but left to follow-on standards such as =
BCP 47.
=EF=BF=BD
BCP 47 has a very well-defined syntax with clear, stable rules about =
which types of subtags can go where. Inserting =E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D or =
any three-letter string after a region subtag, or omitting the region =
subtag and inverting the order of primary and extended language subtags =
(putting =E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D after =E2=80=9Case=E2=80=9D), is not =
permitted in BCP 47.
=EF=BF=BD
=E2=80=9Ceng=E2=80=9D is also not permitted for =
=E2=80=9CEnglish=E2=80=9D in a BCP 47 tag. The subtag for English is =
=E2=80=9Cen=E2=80=9D, derived from the ISO 639-1 code element.
=EF=BF=BD
If this problem is one to be solved within BCP 47 (which I am =
increasingly convinced it may not be; see above), then the syntactical =
and constraints of BCP 47 must be adhered to. This is the only way =
parsers can know what the components of a tag are. This point is not =
negotiable.
=EF=BF=BD
--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org
=EF=BF=BD
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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Christian Galinski wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> In any =
case, the issue of =E2=80=9Csigning=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 including =
dialects, levels of<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> performance, =
combinations of regional variants, etc. =E2=80=93 is more =
complex<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> than can be dealt with =
in the ISO 639 series. Furthermore, similar<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>> phenomena exist for drummed, whistled, haptic =
(and other languages and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> =
language modalities), which may have to be considered in the =
future.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> [Particularly in the =
field of education (and assistive technologies<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>> applied to support interhuman communication) =
there is a lot of<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> development in =
this direction.]<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>BCP 47, at =
least, doesn=E2=80=99t try to cover all of the modality possibilities =
that are covered by, for example, the ISO/TC 37/SC 2 NWIP =
=E2=80=9CIdentification and description of language varieties,=E2=80=9D =
which was voted on in 2016 and which also attempts to cover regional =
spoken accents, time frames, proficiency levels, speech impairments, =
=E2=80=9Cmotherese,=E2=80=9D and much more.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If there is =
a standard (or part) on the horizon that will provide a coded =
representation of modalities in a way that is compatible with other ISO =
639 parts, and could conceivably be made to work within BCP 47, then I =
would argue strongly against trying to extend BCP 47 or any other ISO =
639 part to accommodate this. Otherwise we will have duplicate coding, =
with all the confusion that duplicate coding normally =
brings.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Note that the NWIP, as of 2016, offered no code =
elements, nor any clues as to how code elements would be formulated, =
what they would look like, or where or how the list of code elements =
would be maintained, making the proposal unsuitable for discussion in =
the context of BCP 47.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> b. =
=E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D attributed to a language identifier of an =
individual language<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> (not being a =
sign language) could indicate one or the other kind of<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>> =E2=80=9Csigned language variety=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=93 e.g. (in ISO 639) =E2=80=9Ceng-sgn=E2=80=9D =3D English =
in<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> signed language variety and =
=E2=80=93 if differentiation necessary =E2=80=93<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>> =E2=80=9Ceng-UK-sgn=E2=80=9D British English in =
signed language variety<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> c. =
=E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D attributed to a language identifier of an =
=E2=80=9Cindividual sign<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> =
language=E2=80=9D could be used to make individual sign languages =
identifiable<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> and searchable =
=E2=80=93 e.g. (in ISO 639) =E2=80=9Case-sgn=E2=80=9D =3D American Sign =
Language<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> (ASL) and =E2=80=93 if =
differentiation is necessary =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9Case-CA-sgn=E2=80=9D =
Canadian<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> variant of American =
Sign Language<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> If =
this use of =E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D is not useful/reasonable for ISO 639 =
principles,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>> please feel free to =
suggest alternatives.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>My =
understanding of ISO 639 is that combination of code elements like this =
is not within its domain, but left to follow-on standards such as BCP =
47.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>BCP 47 has a very well-defined syntax with clear, =
stable rules about which types of subtags can go where. Inserting =
=E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D or any three-letter string after a region subtag, =
or omitting the region subtag and inverting the order of primary and =
extended language subtags (putting =E2=80=9Csgn=E2=80=9D after =
=E2=80=9Case=E2=80=9D), is not permitted in BCP 47.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=E2=80=9Ceng=E2=80=9D is also not permitted for =
=E2=80=9CEnglish=E2=80=9D in a BCP 47 tag. The subtag for English is =
=E2=80=9Cen=E2=80=9D, derived from the ISO 639-1 code =
element.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If this problem is one to be solved within BCP 47 =
(which I am increasingly convinced it may not be; see above), then the =
syntactical and constraints of BCP 47 must be adhered to. This is the =
only way parsers can know what the components of a tag are. This point =
is not negotiable.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white'>--<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white'>Doug Ewell | =
Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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