Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"

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On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 4:58 AM David Starner <[email protected]> wrote:

Written
> language tagging would be marginally useful at best for me if "en"
> ever in practice implied "en-Aran" or "en-Hani", and there was no way
> to add the script to the language tag. (I believe it would literally
> be easier to decipher fr-Latn (a language of which I know nothing)
> than en-Aran.)


Knowingly or unknowingly you are stacking the deck:  fr and en have a very
close though non-genetic relationship due to massive borrowing in both
directions.  As a teenager who knew no French (and I don't know much more
now), I was able to read an issue of _Time_ magazine's French edition
(having literally nothing else to read) based on borrowings, proper names,
my knowledge of current events, and my knowledge of how newsmagazines in
general and _Time_ in particular are written.  Per contra, Nastaliq is
completely illegible to the vast majority of literate arabophones, though
very much in current use for Urdu and several other languages (Persian uses
it only in poetry now).  I suppose that Urdu-speakers have now learned to
read Naskh (the most common Arabic script style) perforce, since that's
what their computers used to provide except in specialized word-processing
software.  Even now, digital Nastaliq is a far cry from the real thing.

Likewise, that sign language in question is at the base
> English is of little help if one is not familiar with the particular
> way that English is signed in this case.
>

To be sure.  But the same could be said of written English, if one knows
spoken English but not the Latin alphabet, or knows it only using a
completely different set of sound-to-letter equivalences (say, a Greek who
can read and write romanized Greek but not English).



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        [email protected]
Winter:  MIT, / Keio, INRIA, / Issue lots of Drafts.
So much more to understand! / Might simplicity return?
                (A "tanka", or extended haiku)

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 4:58 AM David=
 Starner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Written<br>
language tagging would be marginally useful at best for me if &quot;en&quot=
;<br>
ever in practice implied &quot;en-Aran&quot; or &quot;en-Hani&quot;, and th=
ere was no way<br>
to add the script to the language tag. (I believe it would literally<br>
be easier to decipher fr-Latn (a language of which I know nothing)<br>
than en-Aran.) </blockquote><div><br></div><div>Knowingly or unknowingly yo=
u are stacking the deck:=C2=A0 fr and en have a very close though non-genet=
ic relationship due to massive borrowing in both directions.=C2=A0 As a tee=
nager who knew no French (and I don&#39;t know much more now), I was able t=
o read an issue of _Time_ magazine&#39;s French edition (having literally n=
othing else to read) based on borrowings, proper names, my knowledge of cur=
rent events, and my knowledge of how newsmagazines in general and _Time_ in=
 particular are written.=C2=A0 Per contra, Nastaliq is completely illegible=
 to the vast majority of literate arabophones, though very much in current =
use for Urdu and several other languages (Persian uses it only in poetry no=
w).=C2=A0 I suppose that Urdu-speakers have now learned to read Naskh (the =
most common Arabic script style) perforce, since that&#39;s what their comp=
uters used to provide except in specialized word-processing software.=C2=A0=
 Even now, digital Nastaliq is a far cry from the real thing.</div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Likewise, that sig=
n language in question is at the base<br>
English is of little help if one is not familiar with the particular<br>
way that English is signed in this case.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>To be sure.=C2=A0 But the same could be said of written English, if one k=
nows spoken English but not the Latin alphabet, or knows it only using a co=
mpletely different set of sound-to-letter equivalences (say, a Greek who ca=
n read and write romanized Greek but not English).</div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div>John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0<a href=3D"http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan">http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowa=
n</a> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">cowan@cc=
il.org</a><br>Winter: =C2=A0MIT, / Keio, INRIA, / Issue lots of Drafts.<br>=
So much more to understand! / Might simplicity return?<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (A &quot;tanka&quot;, or extended ha=
iku)<br></div><div><br></div></div></div>

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