Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
Phake Nick <[email protected]> Sun, 1 Dec 2019 07:16:17 +0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.languages |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAGHjPPKgF440kE-gi3M9e5MT0hKZHp2EFOHqNRdL0P+=uhWOvQ@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============2721629344913180914== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004ff80405989889bf" --0000000000004ff80405989889bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On 2019-12-01, Sun 07:07, David Starner <[email protected]> wrote: On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 12:28 PM John Cowan <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 2:17 PM Doug Ewell <[email protected]> wrote: > >> English and Signed English (of any flavor), of course, are another matter. > > > I understand David to be saying that it doesn't matter if a signed video is ASL or SEE: one is no more intelligible to English-speakers than the other. And I replied (in effect) that if your native language is Haitian Creole and you're illiterate, it won't matter to you if a written document is in Haitian Creole or Standard French. I didn't intend to include discussion of ASL or those illiterate in sign at all, merely signed forms of English among those who understand English and sign. Basically if you are literate, it's not good enough in theory to say "en" for a written document; you must include the script. In practice, you don't, but only because there's one standard script for English and most languages. There's not one signed form of English; there's many, and reading the descriptions implies some are as different as en-Latn and en-Hani. In practice, there are several cases in ISO 639-2 where languages that are basically the same are split by script: ota and tr, or ur and hi. Serbian has two scripts, but they're a different collection of glyphs for the same underlying orthography. Basically, English fingerspelled, English with ASE signs, and English with BSE signs are not mutually intelligible, whereas all forms of written English in actual use and most forms of spoken English in actual use are mutually intelligible (and country tags usually offer a workable proxy for the edge cases in the latter.) Which implies to me that offering en-SSE/en-SEE2/en-PGSS is more important than saying en-signed. -- Kie ekzistas vivo, ekzistas espero. _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages Would it be correct to compare different methods of signing English words to different methods of writing Chinese words with latin letters (aka various romanization methods)? --0000000000004ff80405989889bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif" dir=3D"auto"><br><b= r><div class=3D"elided-text"><div dir=3D"ltr">On 2019-12-01, Sun 07:07, Dav= id Starner <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord= er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 a= t 12:28 PM John Cowan <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]<= /a>> wrote:<br>><br>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 2:17 PM Doug Ewell &= lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br>&= gt;<br>>> English and Signed English (of any flavor), of course, are = another matter.<br>><br>><br>> I understand David to be saying tha= t it doesn't matter if a signed video is ASL or SEE: one is no more int= elligible to English-speakers than the other.=C2=A0 And I replied (in effec= t) that if your native language is Haitian Creole and you're illiterate= , it won't matter to you if a written document is in Haitian Creole or = Standard French.<br><br>I didn't intend to include discussion of ASL or= those illiterate in<br>sign at all, merely signed forms of English among t= hose who understand<br>English and sign. Basically if you are literate, it&= #39;s not good enough<br>in theory to say "en" for a written docu= ment; you must include the<br>script. In practice, you don't, but only = because there's one standard<br>script for English and most languages. = There's not one signed form of<br>English; there's many, and readin= g the descriptions implies some are<br>as different as en-Latn and en-Hani.= In practice, there are several<br>cases in ISO 639-2 where languages that = are basically the same are<br>split by script: ota and tr, or ur and hi. Se= rbian has two scripts,<br>but they're a different collection of glyphs = for the same underlying<br>orthography.<br><br>Basically, English fingerspe= lled, English with ASE signs, and English<br>with BSE signs are not mutuall= y intelligible, whereas all forms of<br>written English in actual use and m= ost forms of spoken English in<br>actual use are mutually intelligible (and= country tags usually offer a<br>workable proxy for the edge cases in the l= atter.) Which implies to me<br>that offering en-SSE/en-SEE2/en-PGSS is more= important than saying<br>en-signed.<br><br>--=C2=A0<br>Kie ekzistas vivo, = ekzistas espero.<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>= Ietf-languages mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">I= [email protected]</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/ietf-languages">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</a= ></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:sans-serif= "><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">Would it be = correct to compare different methods of signing English words to different = methods of writing Chinese words with latin letters (aka various romanizati= on methods)?</div></div> --0000000000004ff80405989889bf-- --===============2721629344913180914== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --===============2721629344913180914==--