FW: [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
"Sebastian Drude \(personal\)" <[email protected]> Sun, 1 Dec 2019 14:17:44 -0300
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.languages |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============7322005566103497617== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0201_01D5A852.2A0430C0" Content-Language: en-gb This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0201_01D5A852.2A0430C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Here my reply to John Cowan. I am now member of this list. Best, Sebastian --=20 Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica =E2=96=AA Av. Perimetral, 1901 Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530 =E2=96=AA Bel=C3=A9m do Par=C3=A1 = =E2=80=93 PA =E2=96=AA Brazil <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] =E2=96=AA Mobil : +55 (91) = 983 733 319 =20 From: Sebastian Drude (personal) <[email protected]>=20 Sent: 01 December 2019 13:43 To: 'John Cowan' <[email protected]> Cc: 'Christian Galinski' <[email protected]>; 'Fourney, = David' <[email protected]>; '[email protected]' <[email protected]>; 'Debra = Russell' <[email protected]>; 'ietf-languages' = <[email protected]>; 'Gary Simons' <[email protected]>; = '105-5-03 Hein, Anja' <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for = sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the = representation of an individual language in "sign language modality" =20 Dear John, all, =20 My comments in-line below. =20 Best wishes, Sebastian --=20 Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica =E2=96=AA Av. Perimetral, 1901 Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530 =E2=96=AA Bel=C3=A9m do Par=C3=A1 = =E2=80=93 PA =E2=96=AA Brazil <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] =E2=96=AA Mobil : +55 (91) = 983 733 319 =20 From: John Cowan <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >=20 Sent: 30 November 2019 00:58 To: Sebastian Drude <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Christian Galinski <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; Fourney, David = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> ; Debra Russell <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; ietf-languages <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; Gary Simons <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; 105-5-03 Hein, Anja = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for = sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the = representation of an individual language in "sign language modality" =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 7:56 AM Sebastian Drude <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: =20 To begin with, a single flat hierarchy mixing dialects and modalities = etc. without cross-classifications is doomed, given the = multidimensionality of linguistic variation (cf. ISO 21636).=20 =20 Even without considering multidimensional variation, a simple family = tree is also not something that should be baked into an IS, because it = varies with time: languages are routinely reclassified not only = individually but en masse, and there is not always a consensus view. =20 [> ] I generally agree with your point on trees, they should not go into = the ISO standard, and you probably will never reach a true consensus. = But you have an excellent attempt at evaluating the existing evidence = for the different proposals and come to a current best-informed tree. = This has very consistently, as far as I and colleagues can tell, been = done in the Glottolog <https://glottolog.org/> . As to your specific questions, the Glottolog evaluation is: =20 Is Dene-Yeniseian consensus now or not? (Lyle Campbell doesn't like it, = but he doesn't like any grouping that wasn't proposed at least a century = ago.) =20 [> ] Dene <https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/atha1245> = -Yeniseian <https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/yeni1252> : = =E2=80=9CThe link to Eyak-Athapascan-Tlingit Edward J. Vajda 2010 = <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/159689> is not yet mature = enough to conclude a genetic relationship Lyle Campbell 2011 = <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/31225> George Starostin = 2012 <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/323413> Gerber, = Pascal 2017 <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/555344> , = Edward J. Vajda 2018 = <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/567516> .=E2=80=9D =20 What about Altaic? ("Infinite are the arguments of mages.") =20 [> ] Altaic <https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/turk1311> : = =E2=80=9CSee Alexander Vovin 2005 = <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/133723> Georg, Stefan 2017 = <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/548973> for critique on = the Altaic hypothesis.=E2=80=9D =20 The current classification of Bantu is basically geographic, and it's = not even clear if all those regions actually belong in a single family. = Etc. [> ] Bantu: Glottolog follows Blench, Roger 2009 = <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/24122> for Bantoid = <https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/bant1294> , and Bostoen, = Koen and Gr=C3=A9goire, Claire 2007 = <https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/99738> for Narrow Bantu = <https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/narr1281> . =20 Then, an attempt to exhaustively list all varieties of all languages in = the world by basically a single person or very small group must fail; = this clearly needs a community effort where many experts contribute.=20 =20 You'd still need them to agree on common standards: see above. [> ] Yes, common criteria and procedures are part of the challenge. I = believe that with differentiating between the different dimensions of = internal variation, much of potential and actual confusion can be = mitigated already.=20 =20 Work on what is now ISO 21636 was originally intended to replace the = failed ISO 639-6, but is now a related but separate endeavor, preparing = the ground for a future registration mechanism for language varieties.=20 =20 This present mailing list, or de facto WG, is a present registration = mechanism for language varieties, with a view to identification rather = than classification. Identification views can and, I argue, should be = flat. =20 [> ] I am not sure I understand what you refer to in this context by = =E2=80=9Cidentification=E2=80=9D, and I was not aware that this WG = =E2=80=98is=E2=80=99 a registration mechanism (that seems to be a = complicated statement already for ontological reasons =F0=9F=98=89); = where one can read about that; what are the procedures and criteria? = Which are the varieties already established/identified/registered? =20 Biologists have enough trouble wrangling their binomial names and = dealing with the changes that come with genus-level classifications: if = they routinely named our species "Animalia Chordata Mammalia Primates = Haplorhini Simiiformes Hominidae Homininae Hominini Homo sapiens" the = name would not only be hopelessly verbose but would change all the time: = Hominidae was redefined to include the other great apes in a transition = starting before 2000 and complieting about 2015. [> ] Yes, these things are bound to change, and that holds for = genealogic trees for languages. I generally like the multitree = approach, where all proposals are documented (cross-tree correspondences = of references to individual clades are a little bit more complicated), = together with the Glottolog approach to make a well-informed decision, = which of course can change over time with new evidence. [> ] For inner-language variation. I also believe that the varieties = classification systems are mostly flat, with some hierarchy for = dialects, temporal varieties and possibly sociolects. =20 --=20 Sent from my phone, excuses for being short =20 Surely you jest. "Je n=E2=80=99ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce = que je n=E2=80=99ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte." =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0201_01D5A852.2A0430C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji"; panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0 {mso-style-name:msonormal; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#993366;} ..MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#993366;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Dear = all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#993366;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Here my reply to John = Cowan. I am now member of this list.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#993366;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span= ></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#993366'>Sebastian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#993366'>-- = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#993366'>Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica=C2=A0 = </span><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#993366'>=E2=96=AA </span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#993366'>=C2=A0Av. Perimetral, = 1901<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#993366'>Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530=C2=A0 </span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#993366'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Bel=C3=A9m do = Par=C3=A1 =E2=80=93 PA</span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#993366'>=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#993366'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Brazil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#993366'><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#0563C1'>[email protected]</span></a></span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#993366'>=C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#993366'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Mobil : +55 = (91) 983 733 319</span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#993366'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#993366;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 = 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Sebastian Drude = (personal) <[email protected]> <br><b>Sent:</b> 01 December 2019 = 13:43<br><b>To:</b> 'John Cowan' <[email protected]><br><b>Cc:</b> = 'Christian Galinski' <[email protected]>; 'Fourney, = David' <[email protected]>; '[email protected]' = <[email protected]>; 'Debra Russell' <[email protected]>; = 'ietf-languages' <[email protected]>; 'Gary Simons' = <[email protected]>; '105-5-03 Hein, Anja' = <[email protected]><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] = Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) = vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual = language in "sign language = modality"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Dear John, = all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>My comments in-line = below.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best = wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sebastian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>-- = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica = =E2=96=AA Av. Perimetral, 1901<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Terra = Firme, CEP: 66077-530 =E2=96=AA Bel=C3=A9m do Par=C3=A1 = =E2=80=93 PA =E2=96=AA Brazil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span = style=3D'color:#0563C1'>[email protected]</span></a> = </span><span lang=3DFR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=E2=96=AA = Mobil : +55 (91) 983 733 319</span><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span = lang=3DEN-US> John Cowan <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> = 30 November 2019 00:58<br><b>To:</b> Sebastian Drude <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> = Christian Galinski <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>>; Fourney, David <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>; Debra Russell <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = ietf-languages <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = Gary Simons <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 105-5-03 Hein, Anja <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language = identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating = the representation of an individual language in "sign language = modality"<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On = Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 7:56 AM Sebastian Drude <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5= ..0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>To begin with, a = single flat hierarchy mixing dialects and modalities etc. without = cross-classifications is doomed, given the multidimensionality of = linguistic variation (cf. ISO 21636). = <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Even without considering multidimensional variation, a = simple family tree is also not something that should be baked into an = IS, because it varies with time: languages are routinely reclassified = not only individually but en masse, and there is not always a consensus = view. <span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>[> ] = </span></i></b><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I generally agree = with your point on trees, they should not go into the ISO standard, and = you probably will never reach a true consensus. But you have an = excellent attempt at evaluating the existing evidence for the different = proposals and come to a current best-informed tree. This has very = consistently, as far as I and colleagues can tell, been done in <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/">the = Glottolog</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>As to your specific = questions, the Glottolog evaluation is:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Is = Dene-Yeniseian consensus now or not? (Lyle Campbell doesn't like it, but = he doesn't like any grouping that wasn't proposed at least a century = ago.) <span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/atha1245">Dene</a>-<a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/yeni1252">Yeniseian</a= >: =E2=80=9CThe link to Eyak-Athapascan-Tlingit <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/159689" = title=3D"Edward J. Vajda 2010">Edward J. Vajda 2010</a> is not yet = mature enough to conclude a genetic relationship <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/31225" title=3D"Lyle = Campbell 2011">Lyle Campbell 2011</a> <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/323413" = title=3D"George Starostin 2012">George Starostin 2012</a> <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/555344" = title=3D"Gerber, Pascal 2017">Gerber, Pascal 2017</a> , <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/567516" = title=3D"Edward J. Vajda 2018">Edward J. Vajda = 2018</a>.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>What about Altaic? ("Infinite are = the arguments of mages.") <span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/turk1311">Altaic</a>: = =E2=80=9CSee <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/133723" = title=3D"Alexander Vovin 2005">Alexander Vovin 2005</a> <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/548973" = title=3D"Georg, Stefan 2017">Georg, Stefan 2017</a> for critique on the = Altaic hypothesis.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The current classification of Bantu is = basically geographic, and it's not even clear if all those regions = actually belong in a single family. Etc.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Bantu: = Glottolog follows <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/24122" = title=3D"Blench, Roger 2009">Blench, Roger 2009</a> for <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/bant1294">Bantoid</a>,= and <a href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/99738" = title=3D"Bostoen, Koen and Gr=C3=A9goire, Claire 2007">Bostoen, Koen and = Gr=C3=A9goire, Claire 2007</a> for <a = href=3D"https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/narr1281">Narrow = Bantu</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5= ..0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Then, an attempt to = exhaustively list all varieties of all languages in the world by = basically a single person or very small group must fail; this clearly = needs a community effort where many experts = contribute. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>You'd still need them to agree on common = standards: see above.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Yes, common = criteria and procedures are part of the challenge. I believe that = with differentiating between the different dimensions of internal = variation, much of potential and actual confusion can be mitigated = already. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5= ..0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Work on what is now = ISO 21636 was originally intended to replace the failed ISO 639-6, but = is now a related but separate endeavor, preparing the ground for a = future registration mechanism for language = varieties. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>This present mailing list, or de facto WG, is a = present registration mechanism for language varieties, with a view to = identification rather than classification. Identification views = can and, I argue, should be flat. <span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] I am not sure = I understand what you refer to in this context by = =E2=80=9Cidentification=E2=80=9D, and I was not aware that this WG = =E2=80=98is=E2=80=99 a registration mechanism (that seems to be a = complicated statement already for ontological reasons </span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI = Emoji",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>😉</sp= an><span style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>); where one = can read about that; what are the procedures and criteria? Which = are the varieties already = established/identified/registered?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Biologists have enough trouble wrangling their = binomial names and dealing with the changes that come with genus-level = classifications: if they routinely named our species "Animalia = Chordata Mammalia Primates Haplorhini Simiiformes Hominidae Homininae = Hominini Homo sapiens" the name would not only be hopelessly = verbose but would change all the time: Hominidae was redefined to = include the other great apes in a transition starting before 2000 and = complieting about 2015.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Yes, these = things are bound to change, and that holds for genealogic trees for = languages. I generally like the multitree approach, where all = proposals are documented (cross-tree correspondences of references to = individual clades are a little bit more complicated), together with the = Glottolog approach to make a well-</span><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>informed decision, which of course can change = over time with new evidence.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] For = inner-language variation. I also believe that the varieties = classification systems are mostly flat, with some hierarchy for = dialects, temporal varieties and possibly = sociolects.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>-- </span><o:p>= </o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid = #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5= ..0pt'><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Sent from my phone, = excuses for being = short<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Surely you jest. "Je n=E2=80=99ai fait = celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n=E2=80=99ai pas eu le loisir de = la faire plus courte."<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></h= tml> ------=_NextPart_000_0201_01D5A852.2A0430C0-- --===============7322005566103497617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --===============7322005566103497617==--