FW: [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
"Sebastian Drude \(personal\)" <[email protected]> Sun, 1 Dec 2019 14:21:49 -0300
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.languages |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============3952713042488248246== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0213_01D5A852.BC5BDFE0" Content-Language: en-gb This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0213_01D5A852.BC5BDFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Please find below my reply to Doug=E2=80=99s mail. Does somebody have an alternative e-mail address for Doug? Then please = forward this mail to him. His [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = mailbox seems to be full. I am looking forward to cooperating with (some of) you in order to make = the IETF language tag system (BCP 47 and related mechanisms) work with = the future ISO 21636. Best wishes, Sebastian --=20 Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica =E2=96=AA Av. Perimetral, 1901 Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530 =E2=96=AA Bel=C3=A9m do Par=C3=A1 = =E2=80=93 PA =E2=96=AA Brazil <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] =E2=96=AA Mobil : +55 (91) = 983 733 319 =20 From: Sebastian Drude (personal) <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >=20 Sent: 01 December 2019 13:42 To: 'Doug Ewell' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'John = Cowan' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: 'Christian Galinski' <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Fourney, David' = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Peter = Constable' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; = '[email protected]' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Debra Russell' = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'ietf-languages' = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Melinda = Lyons' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Gary = Simons' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; '105-5-03 = Hein, Anja' <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for = sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the = representation of an individual language in "sign language modality" =20 Thanks a lot, dear Doug, for your detailed comments and suggestions. =20 Again, my comments are in-line below. =20 Best wishes, Sebastian --=20 Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica =E2=96=AA Av. Perimetral, 1901 Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530 =E2=96=AA Bel=C3=A9m do Par=C3=A1 = =E2=80=93 PA =E2=96=AA Brazil <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] =E2=96=AA Mobil : +55 (91) = 983 733 319 =20 From: Doug Ewell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >=20 Sent: 29 November 2019 22:00 To: 'Sebastian Drude' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'John = Cowan' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: 'Christian Galinski' <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Fourney, David' = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Peter = Constable' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; = [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ; 'Debra Russell' = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'ietf-languages' = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Melinda = Lyons' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Gary = Simons' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; '105-5-03 = Hein, Anja' <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for = sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the = representation of an individual language in "sign language modality" =20 If you are serious, and it sounds very much like you are, about making = the new standard work well with BCP 47,=20 [> ] What would be the alternative? To have a (consistent, I believe) = framework for inner-language variation in ISO, and an unconnected BCP? =20 I would suggest a few things: [> ] The way you write, it sounds to me as if you perceive this a = personal enterprise of me as a single person. In my understanding, this = should be a common enterprise between the IETF language group and the = ISO TC37/SC2/WG1, and possibly other stakeholders. Shouldn=E2=80=99t it = be a common and shared goal to make these frameworks work well one with = another? I am certainly willing to contribute, and even to take a = leading role where needed (as far as my time allows; this is all outside = my regular job), but only if major stakeholders agree that we all should = build something what works in a constructive dialogue. =20 Read BCP 47, essentially cover-to-cover,=20 [> ] I have, a number of times, first around 2013 if I remember it = right. I do not know it by heart, but I think I have a good basic = understanding. =20 so that you come away feeling you have a very strong grasp on both the = syntax and the intended use scenarios. You will want 21636 to fit into = BCP 47 the way 639 and 3166 and 15924 and UN M49 already do, so this = understanding is of utmost importance. [> ] I agree. =20 Keep in mind that all types of subtag, except the primary language = subtag, are optional and any or all can be used together. That is to = say, it might not make sense to use a script subtag together with a = 21636-based subtag indicating =E2=80=9Csigned=E2=80=9D, but short of = that, almost any combination is possible. [> ] Indeed. =20 Study the BCP 47 syntax carefully so you are in a position to propose a = reasonable and compatible structure for 21636-based subtags.=20 [> ] Again, I do not think that this a task only for me as a single = person. I would love to contribute to a small working group that has = this goal. =20 This may be hard because we didn=E2=80=99t leave much in the way of = =E2=80=9Creserved=E2=80=9D patterns for a projected new type of subtag.=20 [> ] Yes, I am aware of that, and I have not yet seen a good solution. =20 One pattern that might possibly be workable is 3 characters, 1 digit = followed by 2 letters. [> ] This would give us 6760 combinations, less then the number of = currently recognized languages, which therefore certainly is not = sufficient for tagging all language varieties, in particular all = regional varieties and dialects, where you need, for the majority of = languages, at least two and for some up to hundreds of varieties. [> ] I would rather envisage one implementation (subtag/extension, = whatever works for each dimension) for each of the 8 dimensions. =20 There aren=E2=80=99t any existing subtags like that, so it might be = possible to update the syntax to carve this pattern out of the existing = syntax. I=E2=80=99m just throwing ideas out here. [> ] Thanks for that. It is a start on how to make advances on this. =20 Remember that BCP 47 can RECOMMEND using or not using certain subtag = values together, but cannot enforce it. Users will do what they do. BCP = 47 gives an example of "tlh-Kore-AQ-fonipa" (Klingon, Korean script, as = used in Antarctica, IPA phonetic transcription) as a tag that is silly, = but perfectly valid syntactically, and even perhaps semantically. Think = of combinations that might exist when your subtags are added. [> ] Sure, but I do not see this as a general objection; it holds = already now for BCP 47. =20 Understand how your subtags will participate in matching. Keep in mind = that many processes use simplified matching, and might return results in = =E2=80=9Cen=E2=80=9D in response to a request for = =E2=80=9Cen-with-some-new-subtag-for-haptic=E2=80=9D, which might not be = a great match in practice. Be ready to suggest what processes should do = in certain cases. Remember software isn=E2=80=99t updated overnight. [> ] I have only a very basic understanding of matching and the = respective implementations. Again, I would love to contribute and work = together with others who understand this better. =20 Be prepared to participate in the IETF process of updating BCP 47,=20 [> ] I am, but again, I hope I will not be alone, and I hope that also = group members from IETF share the goal and do not act only as = gatekeepers. =20 because if you want these to be full-fledged subtags (not an extension), = then we will have to go through that process and your input will be = needed. It=E2=80=99s a lengthy and sometimes difficult process; if you = think WE=E2=80=99RE asking tough questions here, just wait. [> ] I hope we can figure this out together; I am aware that I do no = have all the answers and probably lack the needed expertise in some = areas to develop them on my own. =20 OR=E2=80=A6 you might take a different path entirely and consider = creating an extension for 21636 identifiers instead. (If you=E2=80=99re = not sure what an =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D is, go back to = =E2=80=9CRead BCP 47=E2=80=9D above.) You would need to write an RFC to = define the extension, from several specific angles, as described in BCP = 47, and get that approved through IETF. [> ] Again, I hope this does not mean me as a single person. =20 You will still need to have stable identifiers, meaning they = don=E2=80=99t change in a way that makes existing language tags invalid. [> ] Sure. =20 [> ] We do not have yet any concrete proposal for a registration system = for varieties, but stability and compatibility with BCP 47 as it is = implemented now are certainly important criteria. =20 And the identifiers need to be publicly available, not something one = needs to pay for or set up an account to view. [> ] Absolutely agreed. =20 Going the extension route might also allow you to recreate the = hierarchical structure you were describing, in a way that a single = subtag would not accommodate. [> ] I am not advocating for a hierarchical system; very much to the = contrary. But it is a matter of fact that for instance regional = varieties / dialects are often arranged in sub-classifications. =20 [> ] For the time being I am focusing on concluding the ISO procedure = for ISO 21636, but I believe that it is now sufficiently advanced to = start this discussion. In this sense, I thank you again for investing = your time to make these comments. =20 [> ] Please let me know what I need to do to become a member of the = 'ietf-languages' [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> list (if that is the working group you = are referring to) and/or of other relevant groups. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org =20 From: Sebastian Drude <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >=20 Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 5:56 To: John Cowan <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Doug Ewell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Christian = Galinski <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; Fourney, David = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Peter = Constable <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; = [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ; Debra Russell <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; ietf-languages <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; Melinda Lyons <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; Gary Simons <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> >; 105-5-03 Hein, Anja = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for = sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the = representation of an individual language in "sign language modality" =20 Indeed, ISO 639-6 failed, and (in my view and that of many colleagues = dealing with language diversity) rightly so, although it had much valid = research and some interesting insights. To begin with, a single flat hierarchy mixing dialects and modalities = etc. without cross-classifications is doomed, given the = multidimensionality of linguistic variation (cf. ISO 21636). Then, an = attempt to exhaustively list all varieties of all languages in the world = by basically a single person or very small group must fail; this clearly = needs a community effort where many experts contribute.=20 Work on what is now ISO 21636 was originally intended to replace the = failed ISO 639-6, but is now a related but separate endeavor, preparing = the ground for a future registration mechanism for language varieties.=20 Best, Sebastian=20 --=20 Sent from my phone, excuses for being short --=20 drude@xs4all - +55 (91) 983 733 319 =20 =20 On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:47 AM -0300, "John Cowan" <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 10:15 AM <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: =20 In my understanding, once ISO 21636 is established / accepted, the next = step would be to set up a central registration mechanism for individual = varieties. =20 That is exactly what ISO 639-6 was intended to be, and it was withdrawn. = There are other people on this list and elsewhere who probably = understand why better than I do, but Peter Constable's post to this list = (at = <https://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2014-October/012167.h= tml>) said: "While ISO 639-6 did get approved and published, the code = table for 639-6 has never been made fully available in a usable manner. = What data has been available has been looked at by lots of people with a = response that they don't find it particularly useful for any practical = application. Moreover, the agency that was designated as registration = authority appears to have ceased its operations. In a nutshell, 639-6 = had in many respects failed." =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0213_01D5A852.BC5BDFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Consolas; panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0 {mso-style-name:msonormal; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#993366;} span.EmailStyle22 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#003300;} ..MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#003300;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Dear = all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#003300;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Please find below my = reply to Doug=E2=80=99s mail.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#003300;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Does somebody have an = alternative e-mail address for Doug?=C2=A0 Then please forward this mail = to him. His <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> = mailbox seems to be full.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#003300;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I am looking forward = to cooperating with (some of) you in order to make the IETF language tag = system (BCP 47 and related mechanisms) work with the future ISO = 21636.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#003300;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best = wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#003300'>Sebastian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#003300'>-- = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#003300'>Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica=C2=A0 = </span><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#003300'>=E2=96=AA </span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#003300'>=C2=A0Av. Perimetral, = 1901<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#003300'>Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530=C2=A0 </span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#003300'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Bel=C3=A9m do = Par=C3=A1 =E2=80=93 PA</span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#003300'>=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#003300'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Brazil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#003300'><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#0563C1'>[email protected]</span></a></span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#003300'>=C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#003300'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Mobil : +55 = (91) 983 733 319</span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#003300'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#993366;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 = 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Sebastian Drude = (personal) <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> = 01 December 2019 13:42<br><b>To:</b> 'Doug Ewell' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; 'John Cowan' = <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> = 'Christian Galinski' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>>; 'Fourney, David' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'Peter Constable' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = '[email protected]' <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'Debra Russell' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'ietf-languages' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'Melinda Lyons' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'Gary Simons' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = '105-5-03 Hein, Anja' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language = identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating = the representation of an individual language in "sign language = modality"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Thanks a lot, dear = Doug, for your detailed comments and = suggestions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Again, my comments = are in-line below.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best = wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sebastian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>-- = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica = =E2=96=AA Av. Perimetral, 1901<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Terra = Firme, CEP: 66077-530 =E2=96=AA Bel=C3=A9m do Par=C3=A1 = =E2=80=93 PA =E2=96=AA Brazil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span = style=3D'color:#0563C1'>[email protected]</span></a> = </span><span lang=3DFR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=E2=96=AA = Mobil : +55 (91) 983 733 319</span><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 = 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Doug Ewell <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = <br><b>Sent:</b> 29 November 2019 22:00<br><b>To:</b> 'Sebastian Drude' = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; 'John = Cowan' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> = 'Christian Galinski' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>>; 'Fourney, David' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'Peter Constable' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>; 'Debra Russell' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'ietf-languages' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'Melinda Lyons' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 'Gary Simons' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = '105-5-03 Hein, Anja' <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language = identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating = the representation of an individual language in "sign language = modality"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US>If you are serious, and it sounds very much like you are, = about making the new standard work well with BCP 47, <span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] What would be = the alternative? To have a (consistent, I believe) framework for = inner-language variation in ISO, and an unconnected = BCP?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>I would suggest a few = things:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] The way you = write, it sounds to me as if you perceive this a personal enterprise of = me as a single person. In my understanding, this should be a = common enterprise between the IETF language group and the ISO = TC37/SC2/WG1, and possibly other stakeholders. Shouldn=E2=80=99t = it be a common and shared goal to make these frameworks work well one = with another? I am certainly willing to contribute, and even to = take a leading role where needed (as far as my time allows; this is all = outside my regular job), but only if major stakeholders agree that we = all should build something what works in a constructive = dialogue.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Read BCP 47, essentially = cover-to-cover, <span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>[> ] I = have, a number of times, first around 2013 if I remember it right. = I do not know it by heart, but I think I have a good basic = understanding.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>so that you come away feeling you = have a very strong grasp on both the syntax and the intended use = scenarios. You will want 21636 to fit into BCP 47 the way 639 and = 3166 and 15924 and UN M49 already do, so this understanding is of utmost = importance.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] I = agree.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Keep in mind that all = types of subtag, except the primary language subtag, are optional and = any or all can be used together. That is to say, it might not make sense = to use a script subtag together with a 21636-based subtag indicating = =E2=80=9Csigned=E2=80=9D, but short of that, almost any combination is = possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] = Indeed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US>Study the BCP 47 syntax carefully so you are in a position = to propose a reasonable and compatible structure for 21636-based = subtags. <span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Again, I do = not think that this a task only for me as a single person. I would = love to contribute to a small working group that has this = goal.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>This may be hard because we = didn=E2=80=99t leave much in the way of =E2=80=9Creserved=E2=80=9D = patterns for a projected new type of subtag. <span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Yes, I am = aware of that, and I have not yet seen a good = solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>One pattern that might = possibly be workable is 3 characters, 1 digit followed by 2 = letters.<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] This would = give us 6760 combinations, less then the number of currently recognized = languages, which therefore certainly is not sufficient for tagging all = language varieties, in particular all regional varieties and dialects, = where you need, for the majority of languages, at least two and for some = up to hundreds of varieties.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] I would = rather envisage one implementation (subtag/extension, whatever works for = each dimension) for each of the 8 dimensions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>There aren=E2=80=99t any existing = subtags like that, so it might be possible to update the syntax to carve = this pattern out of the existing syntax. I=E2=80=99m just throwing ideas = out here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Thanks for = that. It is a start on how to make advances on = this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US>Remember that BCP 47 can RECOMMEND using or not using = certain subtag values together, but cannot enforce it. Users will do = what they do. BCP 47 gives an example of "tlh-Kore-AQ-fonipa" = (Klingon, Korean script, as used in Antarctica, IPA phonetic = transcription) as a tag that is silly, but perfectly valid = syntactically, and even perhaps semantically. Think of combinations that = might exist when your subtags are added.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Sure, but I = do not see this as a general objection; it holds already now for BCP = 47.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US>Understand how your subtags will participate in matching. = Keep in mind that many processes use simplified matching, and might = return results in =E2=80=9Cen=E2=80=9D in response to a request for = =E2=80=9Cen-with-some-new-subtag-for-haptic=E2=80=9D, which might not be = a great match in practice. Be ready to suggest what processes should do = in certain cases. Remember software isn=E2=80=99t updated = overnight.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] I have only a = very basic understanding of matching and the respective = implementations. Again, I would love to contribute and work = together with others who understand this better.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Be prepared to participate in the = IETF process of updating BCP 47, <span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] I am, but = again, I hope I will not be alone, and I hope that also group members = from IETF share the goal and do not act only as = gatekeepers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>because if you want these = to be full-fledged subtags (not an extension), then we will have to go = through that process and your input will be needed. It=E2=80=99s a = lengthy and sometimes difficult process; if you think WE=E2=80=99RE = asking tough questions here, just wait.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] I hope we can = figure this out together; I am aware that I do no have all the answers = and probably lack the needed expertise in some areas to develop them on = my own.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US>OR=E2=80=A6 you might take a different path entirely and = consider creating an extension for 21636 identifiers instead. (If = you=E2=80=99re not sure what an =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D is, go back = to =E2=80=9CRead BCP 47=E2=80=9D above.) You would need to write an RFC = to define the extension, from several specific angles, as described in = BCP 47, and get that approved through IETF.<span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Again, I hope = this does not mean me as a single person.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>You will still need to have stable = identifiers, meaning they don=E2=80=99t change in a way that makes = existing language tags invalid.<span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>[> ] = Sure. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>[> ] We do not have yet any = concrete proposal for a registration system for varieties, but stability = and compatibility with BCP 47 as it is implemented now are certainly = important criteria.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>And the identifiers need to be = publicly available, not something one needs to pay for or set up an = account to view.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] Absolutely = agreed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US>Going the extension route might also allow you to recreate = the hierarchical structure you were describing, in a way that a single = subtag would not accommodate.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[> ] I am not = advocating for a hierarchical system; very much to the contrary. = But it is a matter of fact that for instance regional varieties / = dialects are often arranged in = sub-classifications.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>[> ] For = the time being I am focusing on concluding the ISO procedure for ISO = 21636, but I believe that it is now sufficiently advanced to start this = discussion. In this sense, I thank you again for investing your = time to make these comments. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>[> ] = Please let me know what I need to do to become a member of the = 'ietf-languages' <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> list = (if that is the working group you are referring to) and/or of other = relevant groups.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white'>--<o:p></o:p>= </span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white'>Doug Ewell | = Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org</span><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Sebastian Drude <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> = Friday, November 29, 2019 5:56<br><b>To:</b> John Cowan <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Doug = Ewell <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = Christian Galinski <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>>; Fourney, David <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = Peter Constable <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>; Debra Russell <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = ietf-languages <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = Melinda Lyons <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = Gary Simons <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>; = 105-5-03 Hein, Anja <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language = identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating = the representation of an individual language in "sign language = modality"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Indeed, ISO 639-6 = failed, and (in my view and that of many colleagues dealing with = language diversity) rightly so, although it had much valid research and = some interesting insights.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>To begin with, a = single flat hierarchy mixing dialects and modalities etc. without = cross-classifications is doomed, given the multidimensionality of = linguistic variation (cf. ISO 21636). Then, an attempt to exhaustively = list all varieties of all languages in the world by basically a single = person or very small group must fail; this clearly needs a community = effort where many experts contribute. = <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Work on what is now = ISO 21636 was originally intended to replace the failed ISO 639-6, but = is now a related but separate endeavor, preparing the ground for a = future registration mechanism for language varieties. = <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Best, Sebastian = <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>-- = <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Sent from my phone, = excuses for being short<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>-- = <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>drude@xs4all - +55 = (91) 983 733 319<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></s= pan></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US>On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 = at 12:47 AM -0300, "John Cowan" <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5= ..0pt'><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 10:15 AM = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5= ..0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>In my = understanding, once ISO 21636 is established / accepted, the next step = would be to set up a central registration mechanism for individual = varieties.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>That is exactly what ISO 639-6 was = intended to be, and it was withdrawn. There are other people on = this list and elsewhere who probably understand why better than I do, = but Peter Constable's post to this list (at <span = style=3D'color:black'><</span><a = href=3D"https://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2014-October/0= 12167.html">https://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2014-Octob= er/012167.html</a>>) said: "<span = style=3D'color:black'>While ISO 639-6 did get approved and published, = the code table for 639-6 has never been made fully available in a usable = manner. What data has been available has been looked at by lots of = people with a response that they don't find it particularly useful for = any practical application. Moreover, the agency that was designated as = registration authority appears to have ceased its operations. In a = nutshell, 639-6 had in many respects = failed."</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockq= uote></div></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_0213_01D5A852.BC5BDFE0-- --===============3952713042488248246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --===============3952713042488248246==--