Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
"Sebastian Drude \(personal\)" <[email protected]> Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:25:54 -0300
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.languages |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============5525255196016329118== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02E1_01D5A874.D67E6CE0" Content-Language: en-gb This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02E1_01D5A874.D67E6CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, dear John, =20 All points well taken. =20 I did get the spirit of your examples, but thought that by pointing to = how the Glottolog deals with these specific examples would illustrate = well how it functions generally. =20 By the way, I have recently written about the different language = catalogues, highlighting ISO and the Glottolog: = http://hdl.handle.net/10125/24814. =20 Best, Sebastian --=20 Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica =E2=96=AA Av. Perimetral, 1901 Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530 =E2=96=AA Bel=C3=A9m do Par=C3=A1 = =E2=80=93 PA =E2=96=AA Brazil <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] =E2=96=AA Mobil : +55 (91) = 983 733 319 =20 From: Ietf-languages <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John = Cowan Sent: 01 December 2019 17:20 To: ietf-languages <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for = sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the = representation of an individual language in "sign language modality" =20 =20 =20 On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 11:42 AM Sebastian Drude (personal) = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: =20 As to your specific questions, the Glottolog evaluation is: =20 My questions were rhetorical, but thanks for the links. I simply picked = a few well-known areas of disagreement. =20 I am not sure I understand what you refer to in this context by = =E2=80=9Cidentification=E2=80=9D,=20 =20 I mean that our variant subtags, like ISO 639, 15924, and 3166 code = elements, serve only to identify particular language varieties (or in a = few cases groups of varieties); they contain no classificatory = information. All you can determine from the 639-3 code element "djk" is = that it identifies the living individual language named "Eastern Maroon = Creole"; by the same token, all you can determine from the subtag = "aluki" is that it refers to the Aluki dialect of this language. =20 and I was not aware that this WG =E2=80=98is=E2=80=99 a registration = mechanism (that seems to be a complicated statement already for = ontological reasons =F0=9F=98=89); =20 Technically we are not an IETF WG because our activities are not limited = in time; we are most closely analogous to an ISO Registration Authority, = but without corporate identity. The Language Subtag Reviewer is an IETF = appointee, however. =20 where one can read about that; what are the procedures and criteria? =20 In RFC 5646 (the first part of BCP 47) particularly sections 2.2.5 = (definition of variant subtags), 3.1.8 (how the connection between = particular variants and particular choices of ISO code elements is = established), and 3.5 (the registration procedure). In brief, someone = who wishes to register a variant fills out a form, sends it to this = mailing list where it is discussed for two weeks or when discussion dies = down (whichever comes last), the Language Subtag Reviewer decides to = accept or reject the registration (technically subject to appeal to the = IETF, but this has never happened), and if accepted it is sent to IANA = (the formal registration authority for the IETF) for publication. =20 Which are the varieties already established/identified/registered? =20 In the file = <https://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subta= g-registry>, the sections containing "Type: variant". Further details = that were used to validate the registration appear in the directory = <https://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/lang-subtags-tem= plates.xhtml>. =20 =20 =20 John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan [email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>=20 Assent may be registered by a signature, a handshake, or a click of a = computer mouse transmitted across the invisible ether of the Internet. Formality is not a requisite; any sign, symbol or action, or even willful = inaction, as long as it is unequivocally referable to the promise, may create a = contract. --Specht v. Netscape =20 ------=_NextPart_000_02E1_01D5A874.D67E6CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji"; panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0 {mso-style-name:msonormal; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D;} ..MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Thanks, dear = John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>All points well = taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I did get the spirit = of your examples, but thought that by pointing to how the Glottolog = deals with these specific examples would illustrate well how it = functions generally.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>By the way, I have = recently written about the different language catalogues, highlighting = ISO and the Glottolog: <a = href=3D"http://hdl.handle.net/10125/24814">http://hdl.handle.net/10125/24= 814</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span= ></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sebastian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>-- = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica=C2=A0 = </span><span lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=E2=96=AA </span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=C2=A0Av. Perimetral, = 1901<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530=C2=A0 </span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Bel=C3=A9m do = Par=C3=A1 =E2=80=93 PA</span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Brazil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#0563C1'>[email protected]</span></a></span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span = lang=3DPT-BR style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=E2=96=AA=C2=A0 Mobil : +55 = (91) 983 733 319</span><span lang=3DPT-BR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></spa= n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span = lang=3DEN-US> Ietf-languages <[email protected]> = <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Cowan<br><b>Sent:</b> 01 December 2019 = 17:20<br><b>To:</b> ietf-languages = <[email protected]><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ietf-languages] = [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. = attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in = "sign language modality"<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On = Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 11:42 AM Sebastian Drude (personal) <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As to your specific questions, the Glottolog = evaluation is:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>My questions were rhetorical, but thanks for the = links. I simply picked a few well-known areas of = disagreement.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I am not sure I understand what you refer to in = this context by =E2=80=9Cidentification=E2=80=9D, = </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I = mean that our variant subtags, like ISO 639, 15924, and 3166 code = elements, serve only to identify particular language varieties (or in a = few cases groups of varieties); they contain no classificatory = information. All you can determine from the 639-3 code element = "djk" is that it identifies the living individual language = named "Eastern Maroon Creole"; by the same token, all you can = determine from the subtag "aluki" is that it refers to the = Aluki dialect of this language.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>and I was not aware that this WG = =E2=80=98is=E2=80=99 a registration mechanism (that seems to be a = complicated statement already for ontological reasons </span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI = Emoji",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>😉</span><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>);</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></block= quote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Technically we are not an IETF WG because our = activities are not limited in time; we are most closely analogous to an = ISO Registration Authority, but without corporate identity. The Language = Subtag Reviewer is an IETF appointee, = however.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>where one can read about that; what are the = procedures and = criteria?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>In RFC 5646 (the first part of BCP 47) particularly = sections 2.2.5 (definition of variant subtags), 3.1.8 (how the = connection between particular variants and particular choices of ISO = code elements is established), and 3.5 (the registration = procedure). In brief, someone who wishes to register a variant = fills out a form, sends it to this mailing list where it is discussed = for two weeks or when discussion dies down (whichever comes last), the = Language Subtag Reviewer decides to accept or reject the registration = (technically subject to appeal to the IETF, but this has never = happened), and if accepted it is sent to IANA (the formal registration = authority for the IETF) for publication.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Which are the varieties already = established/identified/registered?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div= ></blockquote><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>In the file <<a = href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/languag= e-subtag-registry">https://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-regis= try/language-subtag-registry</a>>, the sections containing = "Type: variant". Further details that were used to = validate the registration appear in the directory <<a = href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/lang-subt= ags-templates.xhtml">https://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templa= tes/lang-subtags-templates.xhtml</a>>.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>John Cowan <a = href=3D"http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan">http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan</a= > <a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br>Assent may be = registered by a signature, a handshake, or a click of a = computer<br>mouse transmitted across the invisible ether of the = Internet. Formality<br>is not a requisite; any sign, symbol or action, = or even willful inaction,<br>as long as it is unequivocally referable to = the promise, may create a contract.<br> = --Specht v. Netscape<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></h= tml> ------=_NextPart_000_02E1_01D5A874.D67E6CE0-- --===============5525255196016329118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages --===============5525255196016329118==--