[TLS] Re: Draft THURDAY minutes are at

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Hi Eric,

> The chairs proposed the poll with this wording.=20

Okay=E2=80=A6 the chairs are proposing polls at the IETF TLS session =
asking people whether they want =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D moderation, =
which the dictionary defines as =E2=80=9Cgoing further than what is =
right or necessary=E2=80=9D and for which the dictionary example is  "He =
criticized the draconian measures taken by the police in controlling the =
demonstrators.=E2=80=9D

Finding that I=E2=80=99m unable to express in words how I feel about =
this, I was forced to take a photo of my face which I think captures it =
much better (I do not plan to make this a standard way of expressing =
myself) [1].

> I think people largely understood this to mean that the chairs should =
be moderating more actively.

See, the problem is that this isn=E2=80=99t what will matter for the =
record. What matters for the record is (a) the wording of the poll (b) =
the results of the vote. I think that if people were misled to support a =
poll where the chairs got an overwhelming positive vote because they =
were told =E2=80=9Coh, we=E2=80=99ll write draconian in the poll text =
but actually we just mean =E2=80=9Cmore active=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D, then =
this is a serious mistake and those who voted on the poll were likely =
misled.

If that was the intended meaning and if everyone understood that =E2=80=9C=
in context=E2=80=9D, then why didn=E2=80=99t the chairs propose the poll =
as =E2=80=9CShould chairs be more active in doing moderation=E2=80=9D?

> I would suggest you watch the recording so you can see the discussion =
in context.

Repeating my comments on =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D in the above =
paragraph, I also note that I don=E2=80=99t know where to find the =
recording. It=E2=80=99s not on the IETF YouTube channel (yet), which is =
where last year=E2=80=99s recording was.

[1] https://imgur.com/a/PCz0u5P=20

Nadim Kobeissi
Symbolic Software =E2=80=A2 https://symbolic.software

> On 23 Jul 2026, at 11:54=E2=80=AFAM, Eric Rescorla <[email protected]> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2026 at 2:49=E2=80=AFAM Nadim Kobeissi =
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>=20
>> Thanks Rich for these meeting notes.
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m a bit alarmed at the following item in the notes:
>>=20
>> "Poll: Should chairs be more draconian in doing moderation? =
y/n/no-opinion 65/2/7=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> The Cambridge Dictionary defines =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D as =
=E2=80=9Cgoes further than what is right or necessary=E2=80=9D. Um=E2=80=A6=
 is =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D really the term that was used by the =
poll?
>=20
> Yes.=20
>=20
>> And were those really the results of the poll?
>=20
> Plus or minus. It takes a while for the session to be posted, so I =
don't have the exact numbers to hand to verify, but I assume Rich =
transcribed this in real time.
>=20
> =20
>> Who proposed a poll where the chairs are being asked to =E2=80=9Cgo =
further than what is right or necessary=E2=80=9D,
>=20
> The chairs proposed the poll with this wording. There was a bit of =
discussion about the wording, IIRC, and I think people largely =
understood this to mean that the chairs should be moderating more =
actively.
>=20
> =20
>> and who=E2=80=99s supporting this?
>=20
> People's individual positions aren't recorded, but a number of people =
expressed support for more active moderation, including me.
>=20
>=20
>> This is creepy to say the least.
>=20
> I don't think so. I would suggest you watch the recording so you can =
see the discussion in context.
>=20
> -Ekr
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> TLS mailing list -- [email protected]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]


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<html aria-label=3D"message body"><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" =
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body =
style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Eric,<div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">The chairs proposed the poll with this wording.&nbsp;<br =
id=3D"lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"></blockquote><div><br></div>Okay=E2=80=
=A6 the chairs are proposing polls at the IETF TLS session asking people =
whether they want =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D moderation, which the =
dictionary defines as =E2=80=9Cgoing further than what is right or =
necessary=E2=80=9D and for which the dictionary example =
is&nbsp;&nbsp;"He criticized the draconian measures taken by the police =
in controlling the demonstrators.=E2=80=9D</div><div><br></div><div>Findin=
g that I=E2=80=99m unable to express in words how I feel about this, I =
was forced to take a photo of my face which I think captures it much =
better (I do not plan to make this a standard way of expressing myself) =
[1].</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">I think =
people&nbsp;largely understood this to mean that the chairs should be =
moderating more =
actively.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><div><div>See, the problem =
is that this isn=E2=80=99t what will matter for the record. What matters =
for the record is (a) the wording of the poll (b) the results of the =
vote. I think that if people were misled to support a poll where the =
chairs got an overwhelming positive vote because they were told =E2=80=9Co=
h, we=E2=80=99ll write draconian in the poll text but actually we just =
mean =E2=80=9Cmore active=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D, then this is a serious =
mistake and those who voted on the poll were likely =
misled.</div><div><br></div><div>If that was the intended meaning and if =
everyone understood that =E2=80=9Cin context=E2=80=9D, then why didn=E2=80=
=99t the chairs propose the poll as =E2=80=9CShould chairs be more =
active in doing =
moderation=E2=80=9D?</div></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote =
gmail_quote_container">I would suggest you watch the recording so you =
can see the discussion in =
context.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>Repeating my comments on =
=E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D in the above paragraph, I also note that I =
don=E2=80=99t know where to find the recording. It=E2=80=99s not on the =
IETF YouTube channel (yet), which is where last year=E2=80=99s recording =
was.</div><div><br></div><div>[1] =
https://imgur.com/a/PCz0u5P&nbsp;</div><div><div>
<meta charset=3D"UTF-8"><br>Nadim Kobeissi<br>Symbolic Software =
=E2=80=A2&nbsp;https://symbolic.software<br>
</div>
<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 23 Jul 2026, at 11:54=E2=80=AFA=
M, Eric Rescorla &lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote =
gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul =
23, 2026 at 2:49=E2=80=AFAM Nadim Kobeissi =
&lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi =
everyone,<div><br></div><div>Thanks Rich for these meeting =
notes.</div><div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99m a bit alarmed at the =
following item in the notes:</div><div><br></div><div>"Poll: Should =
chairs be more draconian in doing moderation? y/n/no-opinion =
65/2/7=E2=80=9D</div><div><br></div><div>The Cambridge Dictionary =
defines =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D as =E2=80=9Cgoes further than what =
is right or necessary=E2=80=9D. Um=E2=80=A6 is =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D=
 really the term that was used by the poll? =
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes.&nbsp;</div><div><br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>And were those really the =
results of the poll? </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Plus =
or minus. It takes a while for the session to be posted, so I don't have =
the exact numbers to hand to verify, but I assume Rich transcribed this =
in real time.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>Who proposed a poll =
where the chairs are being asked to =E2=80=9Cgo further than what is =
right or necessary=E2=80=9D, =
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The chairs proposed the =
poll&nbsp;with this wording. There was a bit of discussion about the =
wording, IIRC, and I think people&nbsp;largely understood this to mean =
that the chairs should be moderating more =
actively.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>and who=E2=80=99s =
supporting this?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>People's =
individual positions aren't recorded, but a number of people expressed =
support for more active moderation, including =
me.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>This is creepy to say =
the least.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't =
think so. I would suggest you watch the recording so you can see the =
discussion in =
context.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>&nbsp;</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>TLS mailing list -- =
[email protected]<br>To unsubscribe send an email to =
[email protected]<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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