[TLS] Re: Draft THURDAY minutes are at

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On Thu, Jul 23, 2026 at 3:25=E2=80=AFAM Nadim Kobeissi <[email protected]=
ware>
wrote:

>
> I think people largely understood this to mean that the chairs should be
> moderating more actively.
>
>
> See, the problem is that this isn=E2=80=99t what will matter for the reco=
rd. What
> matters for the record is (a) the wording of the poll (b) the results of
> the vote.
>

I think this reflects a number of misconceptions about how the process
works.

First, this isn't some kind of binding vote. It's the chairs taking the
temperature
of the room to inform their behavior. The chairs are chartered to moderate
the group in S 6.1, and I don't take the manner they do so as being a
subject
of WG consensus. Rather, it is under the supervision of the AD.

Second, decisions in fact do get read in context because the poll questions
have to fit in a short field and are often generated on the fly. If the
chairs
try to appeal to some poll results on the basis of a close reading of the
wording it would totally be within bounds for someone to refer to the
transcript
or the recording.



I think that if people were misled to support a poll where the chairs got
> an overwhelming positive vote because they were told =E2=80=9Coh, we=E2=
=80=99ll write
> draconian in the poll text but actually we just mean =E2=80=9Cmore active=
=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D, then
> this is a serious mistake and those who voted on the poll were likely
> misled.
>

I don't think people were mislead. Moreover, even if we suppose that people
were mislead and voted for very harsh moderation, then this would a fortior=
i
give the chairs a license to apply less harsh moderation.


If that was the intended meaning and if everyone understood that =E2=80=9Ci=
n
> context=E2=80=9D, then why didn=E2=80=99t the chairs propose the poll as =
=E2=80=9CShould chairs be
> more active in doing moderation=E2=80=9D?
>

I'm not the chairs so I can't speak for their motivations, but I assume
that this
was on the slide and they just carried it over into the poll. There were
plenty
of opportunities for people to argue about the wording on the poll, so I
don't
think it's unclear.

I would suggest you watch the recording so you can see the discussion in
> context.
>
>
> Repeating my comments on =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D in the above paragraph=
, I also note
> that I don=E2=80=99t know where to find the recording.
>

It's linked off the agenda page. I suspect your favorite search engine or
AI could tell you where.


It=E2=80=99s not on the IETF YouTube channel (yet), which is where last yea=
r=E2=80=99s
> recording was.
>

Yes, the recordings take some time to be posted, on the order of a few
hours.


-Ekr

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote g=
mail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 23,=
 2026 at 3:25=E2=80=AFAM Nadim Kobeissi &lt;[email protected]&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><b=
r></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">I think people=C2=A0largely understood this to mean that the chairs=
 should be moderating more actively.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><div=
><div>See, the problem is that this isn=E2=80=99t what will matter for the =
record. What matters for the record is (a) the wording of the poll (b) the =
results of the vote. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I t=
hink this reflects a number of misconceptions about how the process works.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>First, this isn&#39;t some kind of binding vote. I=
t&#39;s the chairs taking the temperature</div><div>of the room to inform t=
heir behavior. The chairs are chartered to moderate</div><div>the group in =
S 6.1, and I don&#39;t take the manner they do so as being a subject</div><=
div>of WG consensus. Rather, it is under the supervision of the AD.=C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><div>Second, decisions in fact do get read in context be=
cause the poll questions</div><div>have to fit in a short field and are oft=
en generated on the fly. If the chairs</div><div>try to appeal to some poll=
 results on the basis of a close reading of the</div><div>wording it would =
totally be within bounds for someone to refer to the transcript</div><div>o=
r the recording.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>I think that if pe=
ople were misled to support a poll where the chairs got an overwhelming pos=
itive vote because they were told =E2=80=9Coh, we=E2=80=99ll write draconia=
n in the poll text but actually we just mean =E2=80=9Cmore active=E2=80=9D=
=E2=80=9D, then this is a serious mistake and those who voted on the poll w=
ere likely misled.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&=
#39;t think people were mislead. Moreover, even if we suppose that people</=
div><div>were mislead and voted for very harsh moderation, then this would =
a fortiori</div><div>give the chairs a license to apply less harsh moderati=
on.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>If that was the intended meaning and if ever=
yone understood that =E2=80=9Cin context=E2=80=9D, then why didn=E2=80=99t =
the chairs propose the poll as =E2=80=9CShould chairs be more active in doi=
ng moderation=E2=80=9D?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I=
&#39;m not the chairs so I can&#39;t speak for their motivations, but I ass=
ume that this</div><div>was on the slide and they just carried it over into=
 the poll. There were plenty</div><div>of opportunities for people to argue=
 about the wording on the poll, so I don&#39;t</div><div>think it&#39;s unc=
lear.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div><div></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">I would suggest you watch the recording so you can s=
ee the discussion in context.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>Repeat=
ing my comments on =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D in the above paragraph, I also=
 note that I don=E2=80=99t know where to find the recording.</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s linked off the agenda page. I suspec=
t your favorite search engine or AI could tell you where.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><d=
iv> It=E2=80=99s not on the IETF YouTube channel (yet), which is where last=
 year=E2=80=99s recording was.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Yes, the recordings take some time to be posted, on the order of a few hour=
s.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></div><=
/div>

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