[TLS] Re: Draft THURDAY minutes are at

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Hi Eric,

> First, this isn't some kind of binding vote. It's the chairs taking =
the temperature
> of the room to inform their behavior. The chairs are chartered to =
moderate
> the group in S 6.1, and I don't take the manner they do so as being a =
subject
> of WG consensus. Rather, it is under the supervision of the AD.=20

I=E2=80=99d like to disclose that one potential negative impact of using =
extremely strong wording such as =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D is that =
I=E2=80=99m now receiving extremely aggressive and abusive emails =
off-list from some senior IETF participants who have repeatedly =
expressed their belief that this vote pertained to me personally, and =
indicates that (I quote) =E2=80=9Cthe working group has clearly voted =
that they don't want to hear from [me].=E2=80=9D

Other things I=E2=80=99ve received:

- =E2=80=9C[I] keep keep keep wasting our time with off-topic =
nonsense=E2=80=9D
- "Continuing to harangue us does [me] no good at all unless [I am] just =
doing it to satisfy your ego=E2=80=9D

I=E2=80=99m sharing this purely in order to express the dangers of =
enabling votes with such language as =E2=80=9Cdraconian moderation=E2=80=9D=
, even if they=E2=80=99re nonbinding and just are intended to read the =
temperature of the room as you say. Even in such a non-official context, =
it=E2=80=99s important to watch out for the kind of language that chairs =
use, because I believe that it played a hand in enabling such misconduct =
and intimidation towards me off-list, and I suspect towards others that =
are in the minority position.

Please take this into consideration.

Thank you,

Nadim Kobeissi
Symbolic Software =E2=80=A2 https://symbolic.software

> On 23 Jul 2026, at 1:19=E2=80=AFPM, Eric Rescorla <[email protected]> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2026 at 3:25=E2=80=AFAM Nadim Kobeissi =
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>=20
>>> I think people largely understood this to mean that the chairs =
should be moderating more actively.
>>=20
>> See, the problem is that this isn=E2=80=99t what will matter for the =
record. What matters for the record is (a) the wording of the poll (b) =
the results of the vote.
>=20
> I think this reflects a number of misconceptions about how the process =
works.
>=20
> First, this isn't some kind of binding vote. It's the chairs taking =
the temperature
> of the room to inform their behavior. The chairs are chartered to =
moderate
> the group in S 6.1, and I don't take the manner they do so as being a =
subject
> of WG consensus. Rather, it is under the supervision of the AD.=20
>=20
> Second, decisions in fact do get read in context because the poll =
questions
> have to fit in a short field and are often generated on the fly. If =
the chairs
> try to appeal to some poll results on the basis of a close reading of =
the
> wording it would totally be within bounds for someone to refer to the =
transcript
> or the recording.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> I think that if people were misled to support a poll where the chairs =
got an overwhelming positive vote because they were told =E2=80=9Coh, =
we=E2=80=99ll write draconian in the poll text but actually we just mean =
=E2=80=9Cmore active=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D, then this is a serious mistake =
and those who voted on the poll were likely misled.
>=20
> I don't think people were mislead. Moreover, even if we suppose that =
people
> were mislead and voted for very harsh moderation, then this would a =
fortiori
> give the chairs a license to apply less harsh moderation.
> =20
>=20
>> If that was the intended meaning and if everyone understood that =
=E2=80=9Cin context=E2=80=9D, then why didn=E2=80=99t the chairs propose =
the poll as =E2=80=9CShould chairs be more active in doing =
moderation=E2=80=9D?
>=20
> I'm not the chairs so I can't speak for their motivations, but I =
assume that this
> was on the slide and they just carried it over into the poll. There =
were plenty
> of opportunities for people to argue about the wording on the poll, so =
I don't
> think it's unclear.=20
>=20
>>> I would suggest you watch the recording so you can see the =
discussion in context.
>>=20
>> Repeating my comments on =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D in the above =
paragraph, I also note that I don=E2=80=99t know where to find the =
recording.
>=20
> It's linked off the agenda page. I suspect your favorite search engine =
or AI could tell you where.
>=20
>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s not on the IETF YouTube channel (yet), which is where =
last year=E2=80=99s recording was.
>=20
> Yes, the recordings take some time to be posted, on the order of a few =
hours.
>=20
>=20
> -Ekr
>=20


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<html aria-label=3D"message body"><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" =
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body =
style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Eric,<div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote =
gmail_quote_container"><div>First, this isn't some kind of binding vote. =
It's the chairs taking the temperature</div><div>of the room to inform =
their behavior. The chairs are chartered to moderate</div><div>the group =
in S 6.1, and I don't take the manner they do so as being a =
subject</div><div>of WG consensus. Rather, it is under the supervision =
of the AD.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I=E2=80=99d =
like to disclose that one potential negative impact of using extremely =
strong wording such as =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D is that I=E2=80=99m =
now receiving extremely aggressive and abusive emails off-list from some =
senior IETF participants who have repeatedly expressed their belief that =
this vote pertained to me personally, and indicates that (I =
quote)&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cthe working group has clearly voted that they don't =
want to hear from [me].=E2=80=9D</div><div><br></div><div>Other things =
I=E2=80=99ve received:</div><div><br></div><div>- =E2=80=9C[I] keep keep =
keep wasting our time with off-topic nonsense=E2=80=9D</div><div>- =
"Continuing to harangue us does [me] no good at all unless [I am] just =
doing it to satisfy your ego=E2=80=9D</div><div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99m=
 sharing this purely in order to express the dangers of enabling votes =
with such language as =E2=80=9Cdraconian moderation=E2=80=9D, even if =
they=E2=80=99re nonbinding and just are intended to read the temperature =
of the room as you say. Even in such a non-official context, it=E2=80=99s =
important to watch out for the kind of language that chairs use, because =
I believe that it played a hand in enabling such misconduct and =
intimidation towards me off-list, and I suspect towards others that are =
in the minority position.</div><div><br></div><div>Please take this into =
consideration.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you,<br><div>
<meta charset=3D"UTF-8"><br>Nadim Kobeissi<br>Symbolic Software =
=E2=80=A2&nbsp;https://symbolic.software<br>
</div>
<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 23 Jul 2026, at 1:19=E2=80=AFPM=
, Eric Rescorla &lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote =
gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul =
23, 2026 at 3:25=E2=80=AFAM Nadim Kobeissi =
&lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I think =
people&nbsp;largely understood this to mean that the chairs should be =
moderating more =
actively.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><div><div>See, the problem =
is that this isn=E2=80=99t what will matter for the record. What matters =
for the record is (a) the wording of the poll (b) the results of the =
vote. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think this =
reflects a number of misconceptions about how the process =
works.</div><div><br></div><div>First, this isn't some kind of binding =
vote. It's the chairs taking the temperature</div><div>of the room to =
inform their behavior. The chairs are chartered to =
moderate</div><div>the group in S 6.1, and I don't take the manner they =
do so as being a subject</div><div>of WG consensus. Rather, it is under =
the supervision of the AD.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Second, =
decisions in fact do get read in context because the poll =
questions</div><div>have to fit in a short field and are often generated =
on the fly. If the chairs</div><div>try to appeal to some poll results =
on the basis of a close reading of the</div><div>wording it would =
totally be within bounds for someone to refer to the =
transcript</div><div>or the =
recording.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>I think that if =
people were misled to support a poll where the chairs got an =
overwhelming positive vote because they were told =E2=80=9Coh, we=E2=80=99=
ll write draconian in the poll text but actually we just mean =E2=80=9Cmor=
e active=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D, then this is a serious mistake and those who =
voted on the poll were likely =
misled.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't think =
people were mislead. Moreover, even if we suppose that =
people</div><div>were mislead and voted for very harsh moderation, then =
this would a fortiori</div><div>give the chairs a license to apply less =
harsh moderation.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>If that was the =
intended meaning and if everyone understood that =E2=80=9Cin context=E2=80=
=9D, then why didn=E2=80=99t the chairs propose the poll as =E2=80=9CShoul=
d chairs be more active in doing =
moderation=E2=80=9D?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm=
 not the chairs so I can't speak for their motivations, but I assume =
that this</div><div>was on the slide and they just carried it over into =
the poll. There were plenty</div><div>of opportunities for people to =
argue about the wording on the poll, so I don't</div><div>think it's =
unclear.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I would =
suggest you watch the recording so you can see the discussion in =
context.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>Repeating my comments on =
=E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D in the above paragraph, I also note that I =
don=E2=80=99t know where to find the =
recording.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's linked off =
the agenda page. I suspect your favorite search engine or AI could tell =
you where.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div> It=E2=80=99s not on =
the IETF YouTube channel (yet), which is where last year=E2=80=99s =
recording was.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, the =
recordings take some time to be posted, on the order of a few =
hours.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></=
div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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