[TLS] Re: Draft THURDAY minutes are at
Nadim Kobeissi <[email protected]> Thu, 23 Jul 2026 15:02:28 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.ietf.tls |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--===============2772887283881588457== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_883C1AC9-ADE2-4A3C-A9D8-A44F02BDE270" --Apple-Mail=_883C1AC9-ADE2-4A3C-A9D8-A44F02BDE270 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Mike, On the question of what outcome I am seeking: a working group = environment in which participants do not send private messages telling = other participants, repeatedly, that votes on =E2=80=9Cdraconian = moderation=E2=80=9D refer to them specifically and to pressure them to = stop engaging with the list. That is the whole of it. In my case, I know = for a fact that this isn=E2=80=99t true, based on the volume of emails I = received encouraging me to not leave the list when I was considering to = do so last week, and for which I am grateful. You are right that the chairs bear no formal responsibility for messages = sent by other participants in private. I should have been clearer that = the concern is about signaling, not causation. When chair communications = frame a participant's conduct as extreme or excessive, that framing can = provide cover, however unintentionally, for others to act on that = sentiment in ways they might otherwise have reconsidered. Your observation that the relevant sentiment predated any vote is noted, = and in fact very useful and illustrative context. If anything, it = confirms that the climate was already primed before the language = question arose, which is the more concerning reading, not the less. On your closing remark: I think it illustrates the point rather well. Nadim Kobeissi Symbolic Software =E2=80=A2 https://symbolic.software > On 23 Jul 2026, at 2:34=E2=80=AFPM, Mike Shaver = <[email protected]> wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Jul 23, 2026 at 7:28=E2=80=AFAM Nadim Kobeissi = <[email protected]> wrote: >> I=E2=80=99d like to disclose that one potential negative impact of = using extremely strong wording such as =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D is = that I=E2=80=99m now receiving extremely aggressive and abusive emails = off-list from some senior IETF participants who have repeatedly = expressed their belief that this vote pertained to me personally, and = indicates that (I quote) =E2=80=9Cthe working group has clearly voted = that they don't want to hear from [me].=E2=80=9D >=20 > In the most courteous way I can manage before tea, I submit that this = sentiment existed well before any vote occurred containing the toxic = word "draconian" (which we all know means that one has a breath weapon = and immunity to the relevant elemental damage). The senders of such = messages are entirely responsible for their own off-list expressions of = opinion and they should not be laid at the feet of the chairs even if a = starkly prescriptivist reading of constrained live-poll language offends = your editorial sensibilities. >=20 > It is possibly ironic, but certainly non-productive, to continue an = extended fight about the dictionary definition of the word after you = have been directly and repeatedly informed that it was clear in the = context of the audience at which it was directed. It is unclear what = outcome you're seeking from it, to be frank. I hope that watching the = video or otherwise gaining the context of the moment provides you with = some relief. >=20 > I hope even more that you're able to find more constructive and = collaborative ways to communicate on the TLS list, because whatever = intellectual contributions you might offer are utterly eclipsed by the = unwelcome volume and tone. >=20 > Mike --Apple-Mail=_883C1AC9-ADE2-4A3C-A9D8-A44F02BDE270 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html aria-label=3D"message body"><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" = content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body = style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Mike,<br><br>On the question of what = outcome I am seeking: a working group environment in which participants = do not send private messages telling other participants, repeatedly, = that votes on =E2=80=9Cdraconian moderation=E2=80=9D refer to them = specifically and to pressure them to stop engaging with the list. That = is the whole of it. In my case, I know for a fact that this isn=E2=80=99t = true, based on the volume of emails I received encouraging me to not = leave the list when I was considering to do so last week, and for which = I am grateful.<div><br>You are right that the chairs bear no formal = responsibility for messages sent by other participants in private. I = should have been clearer that the concern is about signaling, not = causation. When chair communications frame a participant's conduct as = extreme or excessive, that framing can provide cover, however = unintentionally, for others to act on that sentiment in ways they might = otherwise have reconsidered.<br><br>Your observation that the relevant = sentiment predated any vote is noted, and in fact very useful and = illustrative context. If anything, it confirms that the climate was = already primed before the language question arose, which is the more = concerning reading, not the less.<br><br>On your closing remark: I think = it illustrates the point rather well.<br = id=3D"lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div> <meta charset=3D"UTF-8"><br>Nadim Kobeissi<br>Symbolic Software = =E2=80=A2 https://symbolic.software<br> </div> <div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 23 Jul 2026, at 2:34=E2=80=AFPM= , Mike Shaver <[email protected]> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div = class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 23, 2026 at 7:28=E2=80=AFAM Nadim = Kobeissi <[email protected]> wrote:<br></div><blockquote = class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px = solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>I=E2=80=99d like to = disclose that one potential negative impact of using extremely strong = wording such as =E2=80=9Cdraconian=E2=80=9D is that I=E2=80=99m now = receiving extremely aggressive and abusive emails off-list from some = senior IETF participants who have repeatedly expressed their belief that = this vote pertained to me personally, and indicates that (I = quote) =E2=80=9Cthe working group has clearly voted that they don't = want to hear from = [me].=E2=80=9D</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In the most = courteous way I can manage before tea, I submit that this sentiment = existed well before any vote occurred containing the toxic word = "draconian" (which we all know means that one has a breath weapon and = immunity to the relevant elemental damage). The senders of such messages = are entirely responsible for their own off-list expressions of opinion = and they should not be laid at the feet of the chairs even if a starkly = prescriptivist reading of constrained live-poll language offends = your editorial sensibilities.</div><div><br></div><div>It is possibly = ironic, but certainly non-productive, to continue an extended fight = about the dictionary definition of the word after you have been directly = and repeatedly informed that it was clear in the context of the audience = at which it was directed. It is unclear what outcome you're seeking from = it, to be frank. I hope that watching the video or otherwise gaining the = context of the moment provides you with some = relief.</div><div><br></div><div>I hope even more that you're able = to find more constructive and collaborative ways to communicate on the = TLS list, because whatever intellectual contributions you might offer = are utterly eclipsed by the unwelcome volume and = tone.</div><div><br></div><div>Mike</div></div></div> </div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_883C1AC9-ADE2-4A3C-A9D8-A44F02BDE270-- --===============2772887283881588457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KVExTIG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdCAtLSB0bHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcKVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUgc2VuZCBhbiBlbWFpbCB0byB0 bHMtbGVhdmVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK --===============2772887283881588457==--